Northwest Passage [Quenched]

[lzrman]

MarshalNey thats an excellent idea, why not color code the sea's and make it like a puzzle pc w/ a straight line?

[shakeycat]

Like:

Click image to enlarge.

?

[MarshalNey]

yessss.... I think, I like

And the tundra is much better too, btw. (Nice catch Natty, didn't even notice the 'tundra' under the impassables)

Although I do have one question: Why isn't Cornwallis part of the Franklin Expedition? The route seems to loop right around it.

Hopefully this goes to gameplay without delay.

[shakeycat]

Marshal, I'll have to ask the expert, but it sounds like Franklin went all the way around Cornwallis but did not stop there. He did, however, winter at the small Beechey Island just off Devon Island, so perhaps Devon will be where Franklin gets an extra territory (even though Cornwallis looks more obvious). Beechey is the site of those famous mummies. Good point!

Tundra: I just wanted something natural looking that mimics the terrain. This may not fly to the end, but I like it for now.

[TaCktiX]

Some good improvements to this map, I like it, but it's still missing a few things.

Graphics
- The routes have a nasty tendency to arc, and then completely change direction to another arc. It doesn't look smooth. Now, I get the impression that you meant to show the stopping points on the route. If that is so, I would suggest that instead of smoothing the arcs out all the way, put some sort of "waypoint dot" on the point, to show that "hey, the expedition stopped here and took snapshots."
- I know you were just showing off different colors to sea, but here's my suggestion for improving it. Instead of abruptly different colors, have a fairly quick change in gradient. It's a fairly simple effect and will look better. Likely said graphics feature will change several times before we figure something out that looks good.
- The lines being expeditions is fairly apparent, but why not also make the text for the bonus the same color as the line? The white + line is jarring, even though I know you're intending for it to be thematically appropriate to the ice on the map.

Gameplay
- Bonuses are still a bit sparse, though the +1 per 3 is a good start with the islands. Why not add that sort of bonus to the seas, just lesser to account for the existence of the expeditions? It's something to try, even if you don't go with it.

I expect this map to switch into Gameplay Workshop soon, so keep up the good work.

[shakeycat]

Tactix - thank you, I'll get on this I thought it looked like some raggedy denim quilt too, it was done rather quickly to show a friend and see if I had the right idea.

Here's something closer. Though this style does nothing at all for Barrow Strait and the Coronation Gulf.

Click image to enlarge.

I'll look into the route paths and water bonuses. I suppose having territories without bonuses isn't very fun, but bear in mind that water is necessary in these to reach the build-a-bonus of all the land except NWT. I still haven't calculated what is fair for each bonus, but upped Franklin, Nunavut, etc. because Franklin is just as long as Manhattan, and all the land bonuses other than NWT take three separate sections to hold.

Smoothed out Amundsen's line, but Manhattan still juts up in the west. I'm guessing those are the points you meant? I think Manhattan must've tried that path and found it wouldn't work, perhaps something like Franklin heading around Cornwallis.

[ender516]

Here's another idea for sea territories: different areas could use different textures which resemble waves as seen from satellite or aerial photographs, with the waves running in different directions and/or with different wavelengths.

[shakeycat]

Click image to enlarge.

Waypoint dots. I didn't think I would like them, but they are kind of cute. They say "Expedition stopped here over a winter or two, dropped off some men and hung out with the natives." But they do add to the busy-ness of it all.

Changed SS Manhattan, a modern route, to the double route of Parry and McClure. Parry made it to Melville, and McClure later made it to Melville from the other side, confirming the existence of the passage. I am not liking the look of the +3 next to Parry.

Ocean bonuses. There are 9 ocean territories currently not included in any bonus, plus Quebec makes 10 unbonused places. If I wanted to go really nuts with expeditions, I could cover Foxe Basin + Channel [Parry or Foxe], Cumberland Sound [Parry again?], Nares Strait [people headed to North Pole], Boothia and Prince Regent [Ross], leaving only Arctic Ocean, Hazen, and Norwegian. Jones, not sure. But that seems overkill?

Jones and Nares are key to the Ellesmere bonus, Arctic as well. Cumberland key to Baffin, and Foxe Basin holds two internal islands. Foxes and Boothia+Regent key to Nunavut. The only place really lacking any play is Hazen and Norwegian.

Why are you still there, Quebec? What am I going to do with you? Did Henry Hudson, by chance, stop on your mystic northern shores? I want to know.

Barrow Strait is not going to work.

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm, looking at the map I think perhaps you could get away with just having the landing points and areas the explorers stopped at and expand the view of the middle bit which I find confusing. I mean, from my knowledge, there wasn't a whole lot of land exploration in these expeditions, why include them?

Perhaps you could penalize holding all water territories as ships need a place to stock up on supplies.

[shakeycat]

Water or land, either would work for supplies - fellow ships, shipwrecks, or natives.

The landing points aren't just where the fellows stopped for a quick washroom break, except perhaps Disko Island. King William Island is where remnants of the Franklin expedition were found, including the famous (and only) note. It's as far as the ships made it, and where the men set out on foot from. Amundsen spent two years there at Gjoa Haven with the natives, so named for his boat. Devon Island (Beechey, actually) is where the mummies from Franklin's crew were discovered. McClure, though I didn't show it, actually sledged across Banks Island (while camped there for winter) to the north coast, where he saw Melville Island, earlier landed by Parry, and then knew the Northwest Passage existed.

Penalize all water? Maybe dead ends - basically any water without a path on it. I could ring those ones in dark blue, to say "this is water, and you'll be losing men here." Logically, Hudson Strait/Bay would be losing territories too, but perhaps Hudson gets points for trying.

This may drive people to try to capture and travel only along the routes, and completely avoid Ellesmere Island and the whole Northwest section there.

If water territories lost men each turn, then wouldn't they have to all start neutral as well? Or at least be evenly distributed by starting positions.

and where exactly is it confusing in the middle? Is it Cornwallis, Stefansson? Is it the water, Parry, Lancaster? I see it could be confusing where Parry meets McClintock channel, it looks like it has to pass through this Stefansson first, perhaps. Somerset can certain be more in line with its circle. Is it the fact that three routes run through the middle, the lines confusing? And we do know the lines don't make a transit route of sorts, and are merely set below their water/land territories, yes?

[MarshalNey]

This map has been sitting 2 weeks without a reply. Please tell me that it's still in development- it's too good to languish and suffer like this!

[shakeycat]

It is still in development. I've just needed some time to sit down and pull it further into formation. Thank you for your continued support.

[shakeycat]

Click image to enlarge.

Gameplay:
I added a 69th territory, so that in a 2 player game, each would start with 23 instead of 22 regions, with 7 armies for the region bonus. This is assuming that there are no neutral starts. If Amundsen's blue line starts neutral, this changes everything.

I lowered the island bonus to 1 for every 4. At 21 islands (composed of 22 regions), in a controlled drop, each player should start with 7 islands each, and an additional bonus of +1, total 8 armies to start with. To make sure that the players get 7 whole islands, if I understand starting positions correctly, I'll have to compensate for Victoria Island/Cambridge Bay by making sets of 8 territories instead of 7, and plugging in two dummy territories for the 2nd and 3rd sets. For safety sake, I'll be breaking up Greenland and Ellesmere Island as well. That makes at least 28 territories/69 that will have starting positions.

Does this make the game too controlled? If so, what are my alternatives?

By lowering the bonus from +1/3 to +1/4, I'm trying to prevent a predictable opening move and a great first player advantage. at 1/4 and 23, the player starts with 8, and has to take 3 territories from his opponent before the opponent's starting bonus drops to 7, and at least 4 territories to make it 6. It would not be easy to take 4 territories with 8 armies.

I will not give a build-a-bonus to water territories. Even a diluted one, say, +1 for 6 held, would mean players start with another +1 (total 9), and the first man has an even greater advantage. There are enough bonuses.


Other changes to the map include a tiny explanation of Amundsen, and shuffling of coloured circles OFF their lines. I'm trying to eliminate the subway look.

THE SUBWAY LOOK:
http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/nwp/nwpassmay4.jpg
It gives the idea that coloured circles can only attack other of the same colour. Untrue.

Should Amundsen's entire line start neutral? Should the drop on his line be controlled instead, with starting positions? Or can it be completely uncontrolled?
I see that other objective-based wins always have the objective start entirely neutral (Oasis, 66). This is most like Route 66, where the objective bisects the map.

[TaCktiX]

I was just looking at the minimap continents and the actual ones, and I had a LOT of difficulty for a bit finding out what connected to what. Any chance of fixing that to an extent? The tundra/impassables are part of the reason they're harder to understand.

EDIT: And look into this map moving in the near future.

[shakeycat]

Changes made, map updated. Is this clearer? (Refresh the image if it doesn't look any different.)

http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/nwp/nwpassmay4a.jpg

The tundra makes it more confusing, please explain? I can see how the white would, as it distorts the shape of everything.

edit coming later -----

[shakeycat]

Click image to enlarge.

I'm not a fan of the text over the minimap, but overall I feel that area is clearer. Need to find subtle way to make yellow Parry bonus not disappear into Greenland's ice.

Stopped mixing fonts so much. The other was cool, but this is clear.

[natty dread]

Orange on blue is not a good combination. They are opposite colours, which creates a really bright contrast, which also does not translate well into JPG (looks very fuzzy).

I suggest changing the colour of the franklin expedition.

[Industrial Helix]

I wonder if bringing back the clearer ice might be better because I'm having trouble identifying islands as two islands seem to me to be connected under the ice.

And personally, I still have a hard time reading this map. I think its connecting the numbers with the territories and the names. Perhaps reduce the opacity on the army circles or get rid of them all together.

Perhaps stretching the map a bit at the expense of the lower left corner would alleviate some congestion in the center. It's already pretty cramped in the middle as it is... do you know for sure that the small map is going to work?

[Industrial Helix]

Either way, these are graphics and gameplay nitpicks better resolved in the proper forums. Onward and upward!

[shakeycat]

Thanks for the bump up to Gameplay!

Orange on blue is not a good combination. They are opposite colours, which creates a really bright contrast, which also does not translate well into JPG (looks very fuzzy).

Done: and decided to make the objective route the yellow one.

I wonder if bringing back the clearer ice might be better because I'm having trouble identifying islands as two islands seem to me to be connected under the ice.

Let's try 75%, does this work?

And personally, I still have a hard time reading this map. I think its connecting the numbers with the territories and the names. Perhaps reduce the opacity on the army circles or get rid of them all together.

Dropped to a mere 10%, better? Nix them?

Perhaps stretching the map a bit at the expense of the lower left corner would alleviate some congestion in the center. It's already pretty cramped in the middle as it is... do you know for sure that the small map is going to work?

Shrunk left (NWT/ Nunavut), shrunk Victoria island and Baffin, enlarged some smaller islands (Igloolik), messed with some routes (will smooth later). Coronation, Parry, and Lancaster have improved, but not all areas look better. Messy around King William Island. And the water feels patchy again.

And no, I don't think the small map will work as it is right now. I just need to sit down and make it look really smart.

I seem to have forgot this the first time through:

Click image to enlarge.

[army of nobunaga]

im a hard sell... trust me... people call me "jerk" and "asshole" a lot here.

this is a winner.

please see it through.

[MarshalNey]

This last version seems much clearer. The middle area doesn't look cramped to me. Also, by reducing the map circle opacity, the expedition circles stand out much more too. Very nice

I wouldn't reduce the ice opacity any further; the map will end up with confusion over impassibles all over again. I think it's okay as it stands at 75%, where one can just barely see the land underneath.

The tundra might stand to have a bit more texture or color added to distguish itself as impassible, but I might be alone on this thought.

Finally, I think the legend should make the color coding for the various bonus regions clear- it's quite clear on the map itself, but not so much in the legend (the text coloring is pretty slight). This is especially important for the islands- it's very important to know that they are the light pink-ish lands. The legend has an example of the islands, but I just have a feeling people won't pay attention to the color (which is a key to reading the map) unless it's spelled out.

And the two-territory island thing might not work; there's no way to know that from the info on the map.

I have to say I really love the hues and overall look, as well as the gameplay... kinda like Route 66 with open deployment (well, starting positions anyway). I'd keep the victory objective non-neutral if possible.

Excellent work!

[MarshalNey]

im a hard sell... trust me... people call me "jerk" and "asshole" a lot here.

Vocal and demanding perhaps, but 'jerk'? I don't think you can hold a candle to a few I've read, you're way too constructive in your criticism. Have you ever seen mibi's posts?

[MarshalNey]

Oof, did I kill this thread? Seriously, everything I said in the last couple of posts were nitpicks, this really is a good map gameplay-wise... do the cartographers out there agree?

[shakeycat]

Marshal, Nobunaga, thanks for your responses. I've just been taking my time on this one.

I don't like the legend as it is. The ice makes it a bit funny in some places. Maybe with a larger version I can tie in the islands or something. I'll play with it.

I'm also going to mark Quebec as not having a bonus, so it is not assumed to be an island. The colour may not be enough?

The tundra is going to be better in the next version too, more even.

Do I really have to say what is and isn't an island? How do I say this, "Islands are peach-coloured pieces of land, and do not include Ellesmere or Baffin and especially not Quebec" ?

And is there anything at all troubling about the gameplay? I drew in the impassibles based on where ice naturally is, and which territories had too many borders (ie. Baffin Bay), so it may not be well thought-out in all areas. Are there any crazy bottlenecks? Territories with too much power? Any issues moving left/right or top/bottom, diagonally?