Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 ::REVAMP::

[Rodion]

How would that apply in a 6-player game?

I don't know how to read XML.

[natty dread]

It doesn't. There's only 5 starting positions so they are ignored in 6-8 player games.

[Rodion]

So, that's why I see people being dropped bonuses all the time when I play Thyseneal triples?

[natty dread]

I don't know. Maybe?

[Rodion]

I guess.

Well, thanks for the answer!

[GeneralAnestetic]

this map is terrible for duels because someone always starts with a 3 point 3 island bonus, because there are 5 & one player is dropped in either 3, 4, or 5, by necessity. and half the time the player with that 3 bonus is going first. you need to fix it so that two or more of the islands start neutral or change the bonus.

[ender516]

The starting positions ensure that in a 1v1 game, the islands are distributed 2 to one player and 2 to the other. Then the fifth island goes in the pot and one third of the time would be given to the "neutral player". So in two starts out of three, someone initially has the 3 point bonus, but that player would get first turn only half the time. When the bonus goes to the second player, the first player can break and take that bonus.
Setting all the islands as starting neutrals would ensure that the fifth island always went to the neutral player, and would ensure exactly one island each in 3-, 4-, and 5-player games. However, it would affect the starting distribution of territories in all sizes of games in other ways I can't check just now.
Does anyone else think this is a big problem, or is it just the sort of thing one expects in 1v1 games, which tend to favour the first player a bit regardless?

[Leehar]

nah I think this is a big enough effect to be worth changing. I've also played a recent game on this where it was finished by my first turn because I couldn't break that bonus.

[Rodion]

Does anyone else think this is a big problem, or is it just the sort of thing one expects in 1v1 games, which tend to favour the first player a bit regardless?

I enjoy this map a lot for triples, but I ocasionally get irritated with 3 islands bonuses being dropped (Arleus and Itherania also, albeit not as frequently).

I would LOVE if you designed starting points that would make 3v3s fairer.

[Rodion]

Let me just add that the quantity of territories already force unfair 1v1s and 2v2s (going first means you can force your opponent to get less armies than you did), so salvaging the 3v3s is the best thing you can do imho.

[The Bison King]

Ok I've put a lot of thought into this and I want to make a gameplay revision to this map. At the time I created this, it was my first map, not only did I have less experience creating a balanced map, I may have been over eager to get it into general play before working out all the kinks.

I've noticed a trend in games that I believe is problematic but can be fixed. Depending on the number of players and how lucky they are someone can take the whole Eastern half of the map in the first 4-6 turns. By doing this he either assures victory or makes himself the target for all the remaining players. This is undesirable because it doesn't create very dynamic games and limits the re-playability of the map. I believe that by adding an extra sea connection to the Tytherian bonus the extra border will limit the dependability of the Eastern half of the map, make it harder to hold, and therefore a more dynamic region.

I have chosen the Territory Hellengar because from there you can enter 2 different bonuses, and it would seem like a logical and strategic place to stack troops regardless of an added sea connection. I connected it to Illarulia because a player holding Lyalia would probably be defending that already, so the impact of the Western half of the map is minimal. As well I decided to move the Island Solaria to act as a buffer between these two bonuses. As well as acting as a buffer it was pretty much a useless region in it's old location, being that it was completely out of the way.

I believe these changes will make this a more fun, and all 'round better map.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[ManBungalow]

Cool.

I like your plan.

A few small things though;

I initially found the impassable between Illania and South Lyalia very difficult to notice, especially on the small verson when the troop numbers are all in place. Similarly, it's not entirely clear that Alus <-> South Lyalia is a passable border.
Perhaps expanding the Illania and Alus regions down into the large Morovia region and reworking the mountains so that the Illania text isn't ontop of them might help. But then again, I might be the only one.

The text at the top-left on the large version is a little difficult to read, but it's not a huge issue.

Also, you may want to add Solaria to the "+3 for any 3 islands" on the small version.

[ender516]

Gosh, I haven't played this map in ages. I suspect you are right about opening up the East, but I think if we are reexamining this map, we might want to look at the issues regarding the starts and bonuses, as I mentioned above:

The starting positions ensure that in a 1v1 game, the islands are distributed 2 to one player and 2 to the other. Then the fifth island goes in the pot and one third of the time would be given to the "neutral player". So in two starts out of three, someone initially has the 3 point bonus, but that player would get first turn only half the time. When the bonus goes to the second player, the first player can break and take that bonus.
Setting all the islands as starting neutrals would ensure that the fifth island always went to the neutral player, and would ensure exactly one island each in 3-, 4-, and 5-player games. However, it would affect the starting distribution of territories in all sizes of games in other ways I can't check just now.
Does anyone else think this is a big problem, or is it just the sort of thing one expects in 1v1 games, which tend to favour the first player a bit regardless?

I guess I should take some time to "check the starting distribution of territories in all sizes of games". I have had since June, after all.

[The Bison King]

Gosh, I haven't played this map in ages. I suspect you are right about opening up the East, but I think if we are reexamining this map, we might want to look at the issues regarding the starts and bonuses, as I mentioned above:

The starting positions ensure that in a 1v1 game, the islands are distributed 2 to one player and 2 to the other. Then the fifth island goes in the pot and one third of the time would be given to the "neutral player". So in two starts out of three, someone initially has the 3 point bonus, but that player would get first turn only half the time. When the bonus goes to the second player, the first player can break and take that bonus.
Setting all the islands as starting neutrals would ensure that the fifth island always went to the neutral player, and would ensure exactly one island each in 3-, 4-, and 5-player games. However, it would affect the starting distribution of territories in all sizes of games in other ways I can't check just now.
Does anyone else think this is a big problem, or is it just the sort of thing one expects in 1v1 games, which tend to favour the first player a bit regardless?

I guess I should take some time to "check the starting distribution of territories in all sizes of games". I have had since June, after all.

I don't have a problem with that. If you did make them neutral I would suggest 2 neutrals rather than 3. I'm not so concerned about this because I do believe that there is no such thing as a fair 1v1, first player ALWAYS has an advantage, but if you want to right this in when you update the XML I don't have a problem with it.

Also, you may want to add Solaria to the "+3 for any 3 islands" on the small version

HA! oops. Yeah good call. I can't believe I never noticed that.

[JeopardyTempest]

Very surprised to find Cancallus to Dalmus be impassible. The heavy mountains don't extend up and it seems the textured terrain is other places passable, and regardless easily overlooked. I don't believe Rowamar-Thain is impassable, but it similarly has the mountains for part of the border? Or am I mistaken? Perhaps that border could be better noted?

[ender516]

Very surprised to find Cancallus to Dalmus be impassible. The heavy mountains don't extend up and it seems the textured terrain is other places passable, and regardless easily overlooked. I don't believe Rowamar-Thain is impassable, but it similarly has the mountains for part of the border? Or am I mistaken? Perhaps that border could be better noted?

The point you are missing is that Dalmus is not a huge territory extending to those mountains. It is an "island" (an oasis, perhaps) surrounded by unplayable territory and connected only by the roads to Chunjaris and Theraland.

[ManBungalow]

I think I've posted this before, but the South Lyalia <-> Illania/Alus borders are quite weak - the only real drawback on one of my favourite maps. It's quite difficult to work out where things are, especially when the troop numbers go over the border/impassable.