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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:21 am
by natty dread
Now that's dedication lol ;)

Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:27 pm
by The Bison King
Update, The game last night went well. Actually it went really well, the rail bonuses turned out to be a real hit. We played with a relatively different version than the one I last posted. Some things were the same but the northern rail bonuses were totally different. The way we played was that any territory with a circle on it (station/city/fort/caste/druidic warp point, or whatever I'll get into that later) can attack any territory next to it (like and normal game) and the next territory along the path with a circle on it. This worked extremely well. It forced players to reinforce carefully, and to try to expand to meet this points for their own security. That being said I was also glad to see that it didn't command the way you had to play the game. Most player expanded in a very natural fashion and didn't feel forced to have to dogmatically fight over the rails. I didn't any way. Also the player who one started from the center (they started by taking and holding Livonia) which is pretty uncommon for any map, so I am real happy about that.

The only thing that didn't seem to work was making the islands start neutral. This made them really unappealing to take and no one really did, so I'll probably just start them as regular territories.

As for theme, I know some people are wanting dragons and dwarves and elfs and all that stuff. But the truth is that I'm just not into that kind of thing and have no real interest in writing "dwarven cave of wonders" on this map. When I original labeled this "New fantasy map" it only meant "fantasy" as in "Not Earth" or "Fictional" and kind of regret calling it that. And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with being into that kind of stuff it's just not my bag.

I'm still really into calling them rail bonuses, because...

A) Trains are cool, I like trains.

B) It makes more sense, for trains to move faster.

But, I can sympathize with the claim that the maps aesthetic and color scheme does not really lend itself to a steam punk/industrial era. If enough people agree with this notion I am willing to pull it back and call the circles cities, or castles, and the paths roads, trade routes, or aqueducts. So trains Vs. roads Vs aqueducts: if you have an opinion voice it, this will effect the final product. Like I said though I'm still gunning for trains.

I'm going to work on the new draft this weekend and hopefully have it up (along with the updated design brief) by Sunday or Monday.

I've been putting a lot of work into this and I'm really hoping that this will move forward soon : )

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:46 pm
by MarshalNey
You might consider changing the title of the thread- get the work 'fantasy' out of there. I think it'll be an ongoing issue otherwise. EDIT: nm, you changed it as I posted-heh.

Visually, I don't like the look of the rails. They seem to clash with the soothing blends. But I think that can be fixed. You should keep the idea of trains, it's your world for goodness sake.

I like the thematic visuals otherwise, the ships in the water and the teasers that talk about Thysenal (although I think they could be sharpened up some, but again that's in the future).

Gameplay-wise, I like the addition of the rails and the bonus tweaking.

Anyway, I hope you're not feeling pressured by anyone to change the map from your original concept. It seems the rail idea is one that you like, but don't feel like you need to 'complicate' the gameplay just to satisfy people.

Marshal Ney

Re: Thyseneal 1.1

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:40 pm
by The Bison King
Image

Image

Forget Sunday or Monday, I got this shit done fast! So I guess I would call this version 1.1? I'm not really sure how it works.

Any way here's whats different.

Road bonuses obviously, hopefully they are clearly explained enough on the map.

I dropped the Tytherian bonus down to 4 because that road bonus sits entirely in. So once you take the whole bonus it's ultimately worth 6. Might be too much but maybe not. No one ever held the bonus last game.

I brought Ifnal back up to 4 because now the roads attack both Arleus and Ifnal it's harder to hold than it looks.

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:43 pm
by The Bison King
I hope you're not feeling pressured by anyone to change the map from your original concept. It seems the rail idea is one that you like, but don't feel like you need to 'complicate' the gameplay just to satisfy people.


Thanks for the concern, but I am very pleased with how the roads turned out. It's not necessarily something I would have added on my own but I'm glad I did.

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:18 am
by army of nobunaga
Im the minority here... And I hope you dont get mad. But you had one hellova map till you stuck a train in it.

seems like a gimmick to make a few ppl happy to me.

Its a little cheapened to me. You have a great map, great art, great bonus and region structure, and someone said add a fricking train so you did.

Id like to see some strippers in it.. can you add those?

anyway man. gl with the map

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:47 am
by mattattam
I do like the additions of the roads. :) It adds a different dynamic to the map that makes it more interesting.

My feedback on this version is I think there is too many road combinations. I feel how it is now puts more focus on the roads then on the countries. I think this could easily be resolved by taken away 1 or 2 of the road bonus's. Any 1 of the 3 in the southeast part would do. I think 6 road bonus's is enough. You may be able to get away with 7 though. Right now it's a bit much.

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:20 pm
by The Bison King
Ok, I posted the new design brief.

army of nobunaga wrote:Im the minority here... And I hope you dont get mad. But you had one hellova map till you stuck a train in it.

seems like a gimmick to make a few ppl happy to me.

Its a little cheapened to me. You have a great map, great art, great bonus and region structure, and someone said add a fricking train so you did.

Id like to see some strippers in it.. can you add those?

anyway man. gl with the map


Thanks for the brutally honest input. The way I see it is this:

I'm glad that people like the original map, It's a good map, it doesn't need rail bonuses to be fun. However, I spent a great deal of time working out these road bonuses. They might look a bit complicated but I think once you start playing you'll find them pretty intuitive. They're good too, I'm sorry If not every one is into them. I can't make everyone happy and it seems that the more I try too the more I alienate people. If you guys want to hold a vote I would be more than happy to. I think that is a fair and democratic way to resolve this. Could someone please tell me how to hold a vote?.

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:24 pm
by natty dread
Could someone please tell me how to hold a vote?


Edit your first post. In the lower edge of the page is a tab that says "poll creation" click that and enter the poll title and options and other stuff.

Re: Thyseneal

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:38 pm
by The Bison King
Thank you

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:44 pm
by Neato Missile
As one of the dudes involved with the "real world testing" of the map, I'm definitely casting a pro-road vote. It gives the whole game a much faster, more dynamic vibe, and while that may not be everyone's bag I think it works great here.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:02 am
by natty dread
A lot of the times, during the foundry process, a map changes drastically from the idea it was in the beginning. This is usually a good thing and the map is usually better off in the end... check out some quenched maps how they looked when they were first posted.

What I mean is you shouldn't be afraid of experimenting, adding new things, trying out even far-out stuff for your map. It will all pay off in the end.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:05 am
by Industrial Helix
Neato Missile wrote:As one of the dudes involved with the "real world testing" of the map, I'm definitely casting a pro-road vote. It gives the whole game a much faster, more dynamic vibe, and while that may not be everyone's bag I think it works great here.


Good to know, it's nice to have some sort of Alpha testing going on.

I've got a question for Bison King though. Do you have a wider story behind any of these empires or places? Like have you written stories or a basic history?

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:00 pm
by The Bison King
Do you have a wider story behind any of these empires or places? Like have you written stories or a basic history?


Dangerous question

As for basic history.

The Tytherian Empire is the oldest empire in the world. It started in the southwest peninsula, which is also the birthplace of the most widely practiced religion of the Occident (the orient being the eastern un-shown region). Its first incarnation covered the entire southwest peninsula and a little bit of Morovia. Its second incarnation covered half of what is now Tytheria and all of what is now Morovia. Its third reincarnation covered all of current Tytheria, Tuskaroja, Morovia and the southern peninsula of Livonia. However, over the years various tribes and kingdoms pushed the Tytherians out of the western continent all together. Eventually it collapsed under it's own weight and rebuilt itself back to what is now depicted in the map.

During the first and second incarnations of the Empire most other civilizations were little more than tribes or city states. During the third incarnation most cultures had developed into kingdoms. The fourth era (depicted by the map) a 1300-1700ish type parallel, is now the age of Empires. Most of the civilizations at this put have either developed into a large empire or have been swallowed up by one.

Ifnal- Swampy and moorish, is a little behind the times. It is a collective of independent kingdoms that pledge a loose allegiance to a common king. It is largely isolated.

Arleus, Chancella, Azuran- Idependant kingdoms, that aren't especially powerful or influential.

Caprinthia- Sits on a large and fertile plain. It is large, wealthy, and very powerful. although ruled by an all powerful Emperor, it is split up into many small provinces that used to be independent kingdoms,. It's only true bane is the fact that it has an unimpressive navy due to it's small coastline.

Morovia- the hot and dry region of the southern part of the continent. Ruled by a king, with less than supreme authority, who dives out control of the smaller regions to various Dukes and Lords. Jenua, Alus, and Ilannia are separate countries, and cultures but have been conquered by the Morovians at this point.

Livonia- Most of the population lives on the southern peninsula while the upper peninsula remains largely woodlands. Ruled by a King from the grand peacetime capital of Illarulia (a walled city that sits on and Island on a canal) the capital moves to the peninsula on the Rowamar territory during war time. It has a powerful navy.

Solonabirsk- Cold and shitty. Lots of peasants. Most of the population is in the extreme south or along the coastline. Most of the land up north is just for show.

Skyatica- A feudal society ruled by a king and many lords. It has a unique culture. Most of the population and cities are in the peninsula. the northern inland area's have been recently added to the empire. The various indigenous cultures of those regions were easily conquered and subjugated.

Itherania- Itheria, Theraland and Sarle all share the same cultural roots, and were once part of he same ancient empire. Since that empires collapse they have become separate kingdoms.

The Desert States- The cross roads of the continent this area is home to much trading. Cancallus is weak with no real military presence. It is ruled by a tribal council. Narula is high up in the mountains and has a unique culture and religion. It is ruled by Monks. Tuskaroja is the most powerful nation in the block and the only nation with a formidable army. Iskul has no military but is an influential mercantile state.

Tytheria- has a large population with many diverse cultures. It is ruled by an all powerful Emperor, whose right is to expand the empire as he sees fit. In fact any Emperor who fails to expand the empire is generally viewed as a bad emperor. It is also the naval authority.

Well there you go. I hope I didn't overwhelm you, but I don't expect most people to read that. Maybe we could release a textbook that goes along with the map :lol: If you have any questions about what I wrote up there just ask,?

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:10 am
by Industrial Helix
No, I thought it was rather interesting. It shows how you put thought into each of the regions and it really helps to make the map appear more than a collection of territories.

If Tuskaroja is the Naval power, why does it only connect to one territory by sea. Logically, it should connect to the most territories by sea. Perhaps even, one way attacks.

Itherania - reunite the old kingdom for a bonus? Similar to the Holy Roman Empire goal of reuniting the Roman Empire?

Solonabirsk - ought to have a lower bonus because its so cold and shitty.

Dual capital bonus for Livonia? Also more sea routes of 1 way attacks?

Carpinthia makes lots of sense. Strong land army so high bonus, though perhaps the border should be reduced by a territory to make it more defensible. You don't want it to become an Asia on the map that is never utilized.

It's groupings like Ifnal that are going to be taken advantage of to win the game. It's a quick and small bonus with a high yield of 4... which is way to high. I'd say two at best. Perhaps given its coast line the Naval Powers could be able to make their presence known there?

Anyway, story helps a lot. Before it was a bit like looking at a map of Middle Earth without knowing the Lord of the Rings books were out there. I think the map ought to reflect the type of empires and kingdoms it portrays a little bit better. For example, Tuskaroja as a purported naval power with one measly sea connection.... stuff like that ought to be fixed to reflect the story.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:52 pm
by The Bison King
If Tuskaroja is the Naval power, why does it only connect to one territory by sea. Logically, it should connect to the most territories by sea. Perhaps even, one way attacks.


Sorry about that that was a typo. That paragraph was about Tytheria. Tytheria is the Naval authority I went back and fixed it.

it's groupings like Ifnal that are going to be taken advantage of to win the game. It's a quick and small bonus with a high yield of 4... which is way to high. I'd say two at best. Perhaps given its coast line the Naval Powers could be able to make their presence known there?


I agree it looks that way but after playing enough games on this map I think you'll find that Ifnal isn't as easy to hold as it looks. It sits in an area that is extremely busy and prone to changing hands, and because it looks like a quick road to victory it usually stays contested. It's part of what keeps the games interesting. I think reducing the bonus to 3 is reasonable, 2 however, would be too low.

Itherania - reunite the old kingdom for a bonus? Similar to the Holy Roman Empire goal of reuniting the Roman Empire?


exactly. Itherania was the name of the old empire.

Carpinthia makes lots of sense. Strong land army so high bonus, though perhaps the border should be reduced by a territory to make it more defensible.


maybe not a bad idea, I kind of like having regions that are difficult to keep but yield great reward.

The idea of sea routes is interesting and might be worth looking into. However, I've put a great deal of thought already into what should connect with what. It's something worth looking into, I just don't want to promote too much interconnect-ability. As in, making it so that everything is accessible from almost any where.

However maybe the idea of a +1 OR +2 Sea bonus is a thought. As in a neutral territory that is only accessable from a few regions, say Ifnal, Illarullia, Thessisamess, and Iskul, that gives you +1. Or It give you +5 or something sweet on the condition that it reverts back to 0. So you might end up losing more troops trying to take it, so it's kind of a gamble. I dunno maybe a stupid idea just a thought.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:35 pm
by TaCktiX
It looks like this map is well along and you've got a head on your shoulders. Add in all the background, the brief, and what-not, and we're shipping you off to the Gameplay Workshop. Now get to work on those tweaks!

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:11 am
by The Bison King
Awesome! I'm super pumped! Since the roads version is winning I assume we'll be rolling with that that version. Thanks for the votes guys.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:50 pm
by mattattam
Good job Bison!

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:16 pm
by The Bison King
Ok here's the latest version 1.3

Image

Image

Changes:

Solonabirsk, dropped down to 3

Ifnal, dropped down to 3

Caprinthian border adjusted, the territory Thain was extended north to protect the territory Aliskar from attacks from Rowamar.

Also a general attempt to make borders and territory names clearer.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:34 pm
by natty dread
Your small image looks kinda cramped... You know the limit for small image is 630x600, so you have room to increase the size a bit.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:40 am
by mattattam
I noticed your color tones on your map key do not match some of the colors in the actual map. Such as Skyactica in the map key is a darker purple, while in the map itself it is more of a light violet. Solonabirsk looks white in map key while in map looks blue-gray. The sea is very light as well in the map key compared to it's actual color in the map.

I hope this doesn't come across as nit-picky. I like this map and hope I can help through my feedback. Also I wanted to hear your thoughts from my post before:

My feedback on this version is I think there is too many road combinations. I feel how it is now puts more focus on the roads then on the countries. I think this could easily be resolved by taken away 1 or 2 of the road bonus's. Any 1 of the 3 in the southeast part would do. I think 6 road bonus's is enough. You may be able to get away with 7 though. Right now it's a bit much.

Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:20 pm
by The Bison King
I noticed your color tones on your map key do not match some of the colors in the actual map


No I don't think that comes across as nit picky. It's an easy fix, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

My feedback on this version is I think there is too many road combination. I feel how it is now puts more focus on the roads then on the countries. I think this could easily be resolved by taken away 1 or 2 of the road bonus's. Any 1 of the 3 in the southeast part would do. I think 6 road bonus's is enough. You may be able to get away with 7 though. Right now it's a bit much.


I feel like it kind of already is six. I don't know if this changes the way that you think of them but 2 of the existing road bonuses are just extensions of the already existing ones. If you connect Thessisamess to Hellengar it's +2 and Hellengar to Thereland it's another +2, so technically it would already be +4. I just wanted to give an extra +1 to holding the complete line. It's the same story with the northern line. Arleus to The Northern Frontier only gives you an additional +1 to the +4 you would already be receiving.

Does this change the way you think about it or do you still think there are too many?

Re: Thyseneal: V1.3

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:41 am
by mattattam
I feel like it kind of already is six. I don't know if this changes the way that you think of them but 2 of the existing road bonuses are just extensions of the already existing ones. If you connect Thessisamess to Hellengar it's +2 and Hellengar to Thereland it's another +2, so technically it would already be +4. I just wanted to give an extra +1 to holding the complete line. It's the same story with the northern line. Arleus to The Northern Frontier only gives you an additional +1 to the +4 you would already be receiving.

Does this change the way you think about it or do you still think there are too many?


That does change the way I see it. Now that i understand I do like that. I think it's a little confusing how you have it listed in the map key currently. I thought you would get +5 for Thessisamess -Thereland in addition to +2 for Thessisamess - Hellengar and +2 for Hellengar - Thereland for a total bonus of +9.

I think if you put it like this it would be more clear:

Thessisamess - Hellengar +2
Hellengar - Thereland +2
Thessisamess-Thereland +5 total
Chunjaris - Thereland +1
Ifnal - South Livonia +4
Arleus - Denmarn +2
Denmarn - Northern Frontier +2
Arleus - Norther Frontier +5 total

Re: Thyseneal: V1.4

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:28 pm
by The Bison King
Image

Image

I noticed your color tones on your map key do not match some of the colors in the actual map. Such as Skyactica in the map key is a darker purple, while in the map itself it is more of a light violet. Solonabirsk looks white in map key while in map looks blue-gray. The sea is very light as well in the map key compared to it's actual color in the map.


Fixed: actually ended up making Skyatica darker on the actual map, to make the border with Solonaborsk clearer.

think if you put it like this it would be more clear:

Thessisamess - Hellengar +2
Hellengar - Thereland +2
Thessisamess-Thereland +5 total
Chunjaris - Thereland +1
Ifnal - South Livonia +4
Arleus - Denmarn +2
Denmarn - Northern Frontier +2
Arleus - Norther Frontier +5 total


Fixed

Wondering if +4 for the South Livonia - Ifnal road bonus is too much. Thinking about dropping it to +3, what do you think?