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Re: Philadelphia - Working on this again! new draft - POLL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:38 am
by RedBaron0
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I've got a few name changes in there and an additional legend that explains the "underdog" bonus. There is a lot of bonus arranging to do. I think we can break up a little bit more 7 or 8 max. Some rearranging through the central bonuses will be a major focus. I feel NE Philly, SW Philly, and Pennsauken are probably about right.

Additional river's creeks may be required. Frankford creek may be added to split up Center City in a more traditional manor. The creek roughly flows along the western border of Bridesburg northwest through Frankford and Olney exiting Philadelphia right about where the right angle exists.

With that split I can think of making Germantown a little bigger and split off Kensington and Strawberry Mansion into the Philadelphia side of the Waterfront bonus and probably rename it South Philly. The Jersey side I can make it's own bonus, I'll have to figure out a name.

The bridges may need to be moved/deleted. For the most part they are in the correct spots of the 4 major bridges across the Delaware River from Philadelphia to New Jersey. (From south to north: Walt Whitman, Ben Franklin, Betsy Ross, Tacony-Palmyra) The Tacony-Palmyra Bridge is further north to have a connection between NE Philly and Pennsauken.

Re: Philadelphia - draft update pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:59 am
by Industrial Helix
Hmm, that's a unique use of the XML. I'm not sure how its going to play out though... maybe some strange stalemates where nobody is qilling to make a move for fear of messing it up. We shall have to see though I think.

Re: Philadelphia - draft update pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:54 pm
by RedBaron0
That's generally the way some flat rate games get anyways. But I agree. There has to be a balance from just sitting with 1 territory and then trying to win the game.... I generally figure the values I just kinda threw in there to show the bonus are too high. I'm leaning towards values in the range of flat card turn ins. Say:

    3 regions: 4 troops
    2 regions: 8 troops
    1 regions: 10 troops

I'm also not opposed to adding in some of the other XML features to facilitate attacking and prevent stacking. Perhaps the losing condition? It would a pretty good use to allow the comeback chance, but put a losing condition in that say you MUST have greater than 3 regions or you lose.

Philadelphians wouldn't stack and build up, they'd strike and take their chance when it came!(even if the odds were against them...)

Re: Philadelphia - draft update pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:25 pm
by Victor Sullivan
I'd actually change the bonuses to:

3 regions: 4 troops
2 regions: 7 troops
1 region: 10 troops

Just me being nitpicky, but otherwise it looks good (nice avi, btw. Can't beat Snoopy riding on a robot unicorn in front of a rainbow :))

-Sully

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:49 pm
by RedBaron0
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Alright more than a bit of restructuring bonus wise, and I've added the losing condition to the legend. The center looks much more balanced and you could reasonably build from just about anywhere on the map and have a decent chance of victory. Some connections are gone, along with the addition of a 7th bonus. (Frankford) The large Center City bonus has been split into the 3 surrounding bonuses, Germantown, Frankford, and the new South Philly bonus. The old Waterfront bonus has been split in half the New Jersey side of the river is a bonus by itself now called Gloucester. A few other regional names have changed or have moved around. Region count is up by 1 to 43 total. (Fishtown)

Discuss!

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:46 pm
by obm311
wait why do you have to hold more than 4 regions "or you'll die" isnt the point of an underdog bonus so you can hold less regions and build

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:10 pm
by FrancisBoyle
Previous map was better. Why is there a bridge from Haddonfield to Philly? Collingswood should be in between Haddonfield and Camden, and Camden should probably be bigger. Also, Fishtown is south of Port Richmond not north.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:44 pm
by Victor Sullivan
How can you get the bonus if you lose when you have less than 4 regions? You'd start your turn then you'd be immediately eliminated, no?

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:33 pm
by FrancisBoyle
I like the idea of the underdog bonus, but I think it will get a little silly with 8 player games and quads games. Maybe if the bonuses were smaller 1, 2, and 3 troops it would work. Not as "epic" as 5, 10, and 15 but a little more playable. Also, the more I think about it the more I think you don't need all those New Jersey territs. Maybe you could just have Pennsauken, Camden, and Gloucester with the three main bridges connecting them to Philly or something like that. That way you can focus more on the actual city, which could have some really great gameplay itself with all the bridges, rivers, shipping yards, and refineries. Maybe have bonuses for holding a certain number of those.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:15 pm
by Industrial Helix
Don't the losing condition and the underdog bonus cancel each other out?

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:24 pm
by TaCktiX
As I'm reading it, you won't ever collect the underdog bonus, as losing conditions trigger with each territory conquering. I'm reading it as "less than 4 and you're gone," yet the underdogs reward 1, 2, and 3 territories each.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:53 am
by RedBaron0
I'm probably interpreting the losing condition incorrectly then. I figured that you would have a chance to attack and get back over the mark. Oh well, I'll flip it back without the losing condition, and we'll see it works. I'd hate to see stalemates develop with someone just collecting on one territory. But in all the game types it shouldn't really affect gameplay in this way any more than those game types that lend themselves to stacking. As long as the values are reasonable.

Names are easy enough to move around. Things won't be completely accurate afterall... But I'll strive to get it as close as possible. The Bridge though, that's the Walt Whitman. (Like you said, Camden should be bigger) For balance sake the Ben Franklin Bridge was taken out. I am still tempted to put in the 4 bridges as named regions and seperate the Philly and Jersey sides of the river, and maybe throw in a "Hold 3 Bridges for +2" etc...

We'll see, lemme fix these things and see what's-what.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:41 am
by carlpgoodrich
I think it would be good to have a "hold two or you're out" losing condition. In general, with the underdog bonus, players will not attack other weak players unless they can eliminate them. However, in team games, I will kill them except for one spot that I can protect, then he will just deploy on me every turn. This is not in the spirit of the underdog bonus, and I think having the losing condition helps. However, the greater the losing condition, the more territories you need to prevent early eliminations in the early rounds (and to prevent underdog bonuses being used early). I am assuming that if there is a losing condition of "hold X territories", then the underdog bonus will be for X, X+1, X+2 territories.

Also, I think the underdog bonus should be lowered. 1,2, and 4 is still pretty significant. You don't want people to WANT to have fewer territories.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:02 pm
by Industrial Helix
How's that update coming? I'd like to move this map once we've got one.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:15 am
by RedBaron0
It's coming, I got a beautiful idea from Z-Rambo via pm to add an inset map for Center City. I've had issue with the additional territories in New Jersey that isn't "Philadelphia" per-say... but I will likely quash a hunk of those territories for space to inset a bonus in the 4 territory area currently around Olde City, Strawberry Mansion, Kensington, and Port Richmond. I'm really thinking I can put in there a maybe 3/4 profile with the city's buildings and historic monuments.

Perhaps this will make the map unique and intriguing enough without a gimmick bonus structure, but I won't rule it out completely. I'll rework the map when I get a chance. I might have a lot of time going forward, or not... we'll see. Hoping to get something out before the 1st, but hopefully not much past it at the worst.

Re: Philadelphia - Draft updated 7/11

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:55 am
by jefjef
AndyDufresne wrote:A modern-day Philadelphia map isn't too interesting for me. However, a historical city map---sounds like something I'd support. And certainly Philadelphia has a history to build upon.


--Andy


I sure agree with Andy. How about a late 1700's Philadelphia. I think Phili has some historical landmarks that not only can be graphically featured they can also be game play/bonus featured.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:42 pm
by porkenbeans
I like this map, but I suggest that you alter the colors a bit. Something along these lines.-
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Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:56 pm
by natty dread
A bit early for graphics nitpicks, but I agree - although the land should be a bit lighter, especially with the black text.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:56 pm
by porkenbeans
natty_dread wrote:A bit early for graphics nitpicks, but I agree - although the land should be a bit lighter, especially with the black text.
I do NOT think that it is EVER too early for GFX nitpicks, because if you wait till later, the map tends to set in stone. (if you get my drift).
I have found that GFX changes are MUCH more readily accepted earlier rather than later. ;)

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:04 am
by RedBaron0
Lemme hit the gameplay here first guys, I'm on adding in a better representation of Philly by seeing more of the "central" part of the city, and in the process taking out much of what I've added that's really New Jersey.... :P

18th century Philly isn't something I'm interested in doing, it's very small. It's just a small portion of the "Olde City" territory. Besides when you think of it, the reason stuff became historical is because things happened there, and then they became remembered after passing years. Independence Hall was a functioning government building for the city and state for about 100 years after 1776.

I'm getting there, gimme a couple more days, and I'll have something to show yas.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/9 pg 4 - POLL

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:32 am
by carlpgoodrich
I really like your idea of having an inset of Center City. There is a lot in there and I look forward to seeing how the gameplay shakes out, with or without the underdog bonus.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/31 pg 5

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:15 am
by RedBaron0
Click image to enlarge.
image


I've reverted back to just Philly, been toying with a bridge bonus, finally have that realized.
Added a killer neutral... reverts to 4 at the moment, basically calling it the "Bridge Toll" - HA!
Added Center City bonus insert.
The so-called "underdog" bonus can still be toyed with and debated, but may not be needed now, maybe....
Couple name changes couple territory lines moved, nothing major moved there.
Kinda muted the colors, the green is still pretty bright though, not overly worried about it right now.


Overall the map feels less cramped to me, but there's plenty to do, what say you folks?

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/31 pg 5

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:58 am
by natty dread
I think it's a bit disturbing that the inset doesn't match the territory on the main map, shape-wise...

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/31 pg 5

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:30 pm
by RedBaron0
That's easily fixable. :P Center City really is that squarish. Logan's Circle is the only thing not squarish in Center City. The map I used to create the inset and the spot of the actual map Is probably off set a little north/south, and probably should be narrower on the main map to match perfectly.

But it probably doesn't have to be "that" perfect.

Re: Philadelphia - draft updated 12/31 pg 5

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:14 pm
by carlpgoodrich
Cool, I like the inset. Wondering if University City could be connected to Rittenhouse Square or Art Museum, or if you think that would throw the gameplay off too much? The bridges on Walnut st, Chestnut st, Market st and JFK very heavily used. It also seems a bit strange for the inset (the focal point of the map) to only touch two other regions.