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Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby RedRover23B on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:42 pm

natty_dread wrote:
RedRover23B wrote:I dont think being stuck on a home run ball is a problem even with two players left unless the other player is a jerk and malicously continues on the game which i dont see players doing.


No, you don't get it. If one player is stuck on home runs, and the other player doesn't have any pitchers, then the game can not end, regardless of the intentions of the players. In that situation, neither player can eliminate the other, so the game goes on forever.



As long as there is one guy in the fild then the game can end. The only way the game is truly stalemate is if there is no guys in the field and no pitchers and both players hold baseballs, because you still have the objective to hold all bases.

The game will always continue because there will always be a guy in the field to continue to get the reinforcements and eventually take all the bases.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:44 pm

natty_dread wrote:
RedRover23B wrote:I dont think being stuck on a home run ball is a problem even with two players left unless the other player is a jerk and malicously continues on the game which i dont see players doing.


No, you don't get it. If one player is stuck on home runs, and the other player doesn't have any pitchers, then the game can not end, regardless of the intentions of the players. In that situation, neither player can eliminate the other, so the game goes on forever.


You may be forgetting that there's a victory condition in play. If one player is in the field with no pitchers, and the other player can't do anything about it, the field player will take all the bases and eventually win. A true gridlock can only occur if two players are stuck, one in each home run, and the rest of the field is utterly vacant -- and as long as home run balls can't attack anything, this incredibly improbable scenario can't be avoided.

What is at stake is not whole games, but the discomfort of a few turns. I think it's inelegant to create incentives to strand a player in the home runs, but it doesn't break the map entirely.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby RedRover23B on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:49 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote: A true gridlock can only occur if two players are stuck, one in each home run, and the rest of the field is utterly vacant -- and as long as home run balls can't attack anything, this incredibly improbable scenario can't be avoided.


Not just improbable, but impossible. There will always be one guy in the field, in the territory which took the mound. So the map, in a very few games may have a slow point to it, but will continue. As i said ive played the most on this map and nothing like that has happened to me. Over 60 games played.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby carlpgoodrich on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:03 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
RedRover23B wrote:I dont think being stuck on a home run ball is a problem even with two players left unless the other player is a jerk and malicously continues on the game which i dont see players doing.


No, you don't get it. If one player is stuck on home runs, and the other player doesn't have any pitchers, then the game can not end, regardless of the intentions of the players. In that situation, neither player can eliminate the other, so the game goes on forever.


You may be forgetting that there's a victory condition in play. If one player is in the field with no pitchers, and the other player can't do anything about it, the field player will take all the bases and eventually win. A true gridlock can only occur if two players are stuck, one in each home run, and the rest of the field is utterly vacant -- and as long as home run balls can't attack anything, this incredibly improbable scenario can't be avoided.

What is at stake is not whole games, but the discomfort of a few turns. I think it's inelegant to create incentives to strand a player in the home runs, but it doesn't break the map entirely.

RedRover23B wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote: A true gridlock can only occur if two players are stuck, one in each home run, and the rest of the field is utterly vacant -- and as long as home run balls can't attack anything, this incredibly improbable scenario can't be avoided.


Not just improbable, but impossible. There will always be one guy in the field, in the territory which took the mound. So the map, in a very few games may have a slow point to it, but will continue. As i said ive played the most on this map and nothing like that has happened to me. Over 60 games played.

Exactily. I guess the one caveat is with Nuclear spoils... but tons of maps have that same problem with Nuclear spoils. Unless there is a truly compelling reason to add extra connections, I don't see the need.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby RedRover23B on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:08 pm

Yes, agreed. Extra connections will ruin the map, and about the nuclear spoils issue, it COULD happen but the liklihood of that happening is ridiculously small.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:58 pm

Despite my initial confusion, I really like this map having finished a game on it.

Its even inspired me to try a hockey map with some similar gameplay aspects
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:55 am

I forgot the victory condition... Man I feel stupid now. :oops:

Either way, I still think an alternate route to the batter would be good.

So anyway, Evil_d, let me know what you decide about this, and I'll make the graphics adjustments accordingly.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:27 am

Let's stick with no alternate route for now unless we get more complaints. The update should make people less likely to run the risk of getting stuck up there, anyway.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:46 am

Quick summary of changes

- make ball numbers darker on small version
- remove home run arrows
- home run balls are labeled "+2, with additional +2 per base held (not counting Home Plate)"

I'll try to have these done today.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:57 am

natty_dread wrote:Quick summary of changes

- make ball numbers darker on small version
- remove home run arrows
- home run balls are labeled "+2, with additional +2 per base held (not counting Home Plate)"

I'll try to have these done today.

Wait, why are we not counting home plate? :-s
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:10 am

Because thematically speaking the base Home Run bonus already represents the player at bat, and the other +2s represent players on the bases?
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:17 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:Because thematically speaking the base Home Run bonus already represents the player at bat, and the other +2s represent players on the bases?

Ah, yeah, I guess. But Home Plate seems to be the most difficult base to get as it is. I just don't see why we should nerf it more. I mean, I respect your decision to not include it, I understand the reasoning, but gameplay-wise I just feel it would make sense... You would still only be able to get a max of +8 from the Home Run ball anyway.


By the way, I am loving the gameplay on this map! I was never a huge baseball fan, but now I'm a huge King of Diamonds baseball fan :P :D
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby shocked439 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:48 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Quick summary of changes

- make ball numbers darker on small version
- remove home run arrows
- home run balls are labeled "+2, with additional +2 per base held (not counting Home Plate)"

I'll try to have these done today.

Wait, why are we not counting home plate? :-s

Because it's a homerun. In real baseball you get a run for hitting the homerun (the initial 2) and a run for every player on base. Since no player baserunner can occupy homeplate you'd be doubly rewarding the batter.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:57 pm

Update time!

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby carlpgoodrich on Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:14 pm

Quick comment: its "home plate" not "home base". Just change that one word.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Riskismy on Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:35 pm

What came out of the talk about starting armies and neutrals on the mound?
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:44 pm

Limiting players to one starting position should knock out most if not all of the starting army problems. In my observation the mound doesn't need to be adjusted either way right now, given the other adjustments.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:00 pm

carlpgoodrich wrote:Quick comment: its "home plate" not "home base". Just change that one word.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_field#Home_plate

Home plate
"Home plate" redirects here. For other uses, see Home plate (disambiguation).

Home plate, formally designated home base in the rules, is the final base that a player must touch to score. Unlike the other bases, home plate is a five-sided slab of whitened rubber that is set at ground level. The use of rubber was developed by Robert Keating, who pitched one game for the 1887 Baltimore Orioles. Previously, more dangerously, the plate was made of stone, iron or wood.[2]
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby carlpgoodrich on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:07 pm

Well, it is always referred to as home plate. For baseball fans, seeing "home base" is just weird. Since this map is big on authenticity, I suggest home plate. (Even the quote you posted refers to it as home plate after the initial disclaimer.)
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:33 pm

On the other hand, all the bases are referred as "bases" on the map, so calling it "home base" is more consistent and less confusing for those players who are not familiar with baseball... Which is probably like 99% of non-american players ;)
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby RedRover23B on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:21 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Quick summary of changes

- make ball numbers darker on small version
- remove home run arrows
- home run balls are labeled "+2, with additional +2 per base held (not counting Home Plate)"

I'll try to have these done today.

Wait, why are we not counting home plate? :-s




Cause thinking about how a baseball game is- you wont have a guy on home plate so if you hit a home run you wouldnt get anyhting extra. Home run ball plus a base is like getting a runner in from the feild so its a bonus. Does that make sense?
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:42 pm

Well, I guess I'll change it on account of it being "plate" in the XML.

Although, I guess it could also be written as:

"+2 for every base held except home"
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby carlpgoodrich on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:55 pm

natty_dread wrote:Although, I guess it could also be written as:

"+2 for every base held except home"

That would also work :)

Or: "+2 for every base held except" ::picture of home plate::
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:59 pm

It's a bit too tight for space for a picture of the plate...

I'll get an update up tomorrow.
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Re: Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:19 pm

natty_dread wrote:On the other hand, all the bases are referred as "bases" on the map, so calling it "home base" is more consistent and less confusing for those players who are not familiar with baseball... Which is probably like 99% of non-american players ;)

Despite baseball being the "American past time" it's actually more popular in East Asia, like Japan and China (and I think Korea, too).
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