Tribal War - Florida v14.2 [31 Jan 2012] pg27

[VicFontaine]

Just a suggestion—and "No," I didn't read this thread at all:

It would be a good idea to have the canoes be a bonus of +2 or +1, or even +1 auto if all three are held, or something like that. Transportation is always important in war!

[b00060]

Any new map that gets posted in Beta and the map maker, V.J. joins a bunch of the games within minutes of its release to farm people is plain cheap ass crap. I will be spreading the word to not create any games for this map as the makers seem to be joining them and reaping points. Talk about some bullshit!

[b00060]

I stand corrected, he has also joined team games as the co-creators partner Seamus76. If this is acceptable to the CC community, then there is definitely something wrong here. Number 1, this is clearly taking advantage of players for easy wins. Number 2, you would think they would want to make everyone's experience on their map enjoyable, not joining every game so they can dominate a complicated map they know extremely well. If you want to tool around and play on your own map, set up some private games, not go out and join games to STEAL points.

[Seamus76]

by b00060 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:59 pm
I stand corrected, he has also joined team games as the co-creators partner Seamus76. If this is acceptable to the CC community, then there is definitely something wrong here. Number 1, this is clearly taking advantage of players for easy wins. Number 2, you would think they would want to make everyone's experience on their map enjoyable, not joining every game so they can dominate a complicated map they know extremely well. If you want to tool around and play on your own map, set up some private games, not go out and join games to STEAL points.

Wow, this is an extremely harsh accusation, and ridiculous in it's own right. I personally take offense to your comments and your tone.

First of all let me say that this map is our way of giving back to the CC Community, and that we only want people to enjoy the map, and play on it for a very long time, over and over. That is why we worked extremely hard, for hundreds of hours, and for more than 6 months.

Second, we have been waiting a long time to play on this map, and have played against each other as well. There is no rule that creators of maps can't join games on them, and again we are just excited to finally play on it. I can't speak for V.J., but this map is extremely fair regardless of how well we know the map from a creation standpoint, and from what it looks like the game you played with him was Freestyle, which is completely different from a standard game and takes more of your own personal strategy to win, or lose rather than who knows the map better.

Third, I think most people would really enjoy the challenge of competing against the map maker, I know I was honored to get my butt kicked by Koontz when his map came out, or to win or lose against amazing cartographers like Cairns, nattydread, and the rest.

I'm really sorry you had a bad experience but your accusation is unfounded, and offensive.

[b00060]

OFFENSIVE????? How about you see a new map and want to play it so you create a game and it gets joined right away by the mapmaker who promptly takes his turns and ends and then stalls knowing that he has you screwed (Oh yeah, hey knew anyone that has BOB would have their screen frozen so he could do whatever he wanted). Perhaps a Hey, I am the mapmaker, mind if I join your game. As someone and anyone that is trying to learn a map, i think a bullshit out of the gate blindside was uncalled for and flat out soured me on this map. Now that I know who the map makers are and how they operate, I will stay clear of both of you and the map. If you don't see how that is wrong, then that's on you. I could see after a few weeks once people get familiar with the map or if they ask permission, but right out of the gates, knowing that bob will screw their opponent in a freestyle game on the map they know, then no, it is not ok and I take offense. I am deeply appreciative of the those that have created maps here, because it is what makes CC so special, but this, this is not on the up and up.

oh and V.J.s actions display the exact opposite of this remark:

First of all let me say that this map is our way of giving back to the CC Community, and that we only want people to enjoy the map, and play on it for a very long time, over and over. That is why we worked extremely hard, for hundreds of hours, and for more than 6 months.

[Seamus76]

Well, all I can say is sorry you feel that way, and sorry you had a bad experience. That was certainly not either of our intents, and seeing available games I'm sure he was just excited to play someone on it. Unfortunately anyone who uses bob on a regular basis is at a disadvantage right now since bob doesn't like the map at the moment, but I wouldn't call your game a blindside. Looking at the log there wasn't much strategy or bonus play involved, and looked like it was just a straight up fight of the dice. We will both not be joining any more public games, and didn't realize that would cause a negative effect, this is our first map, and having never played on it before either, we are both learning as well and trying to identify any bugs or gameplay issues, but I guess that was the wrong way to go about it.

I would ask that at least give the map another chance, and reconsider your opinion of us, but if nothing else give the map a chance.

[b00060]

I accept that response Semus and have had nothing but good experiences with you in the past. The part that was upsetting was he knew it was freestyle and that bob didn't work and took advantage of that delay and even stalled to eliminate my bonus for the upcoming round. That accompanied with intimate knowledge of the bonuses and the map made it like taking candy from a baby and definitely not a positive first time experience on a map. I will definitely give the map a try again, but not until it passes the beta testing. As you mentioned above, this game had no strategy involved other than it was freestyle and he took advantage of the BOB malfunction. Not to say he would not have won anyways as he definitely knew the bonuses to grab and the map way better than i did, which was why it was a blindside. Knowing that BOB didn't work and would essentially freeze me in a freestyle game was taking advantage of inside knowledge. As I said, i created this game right after it was released, so there was no way for me to know this flaw. Alas, Beta games come with a warning, i just didn't know I would have to worry about the creator taking advantage of the current game flaws for an easy victory and then saying don't be a sore loser boy? Just low class on VJs part.

[Seamus76]

I appreciate you giving it another chance, and hope this is water under the bridge, it is certainly from my standpoint and I by no means meant any disrespect or hard feelings at all. Personally I really can't talk about freestyle games too much since I have never played a freestyle game and have no idea how it works. I do know V.J. though, and he would not have looked at the game and purposefully used the bob malfunction as a way to cheaply take advantage of the situation. I apologize again though for the situation, and do understand your point of view. We do need people to play as many games as possible during beta to work out any bugs that may be out there, so if you change your mind and are able to play some more games please let me know how we can make the map better. Thanks again for taking the time to set you games.

[Incandenza]

Excuse me, "scalp your opponents"? Really? Scalping? In Conquistador-era Florida? Hooooooookay.

[Seamus76]

by Incandenza on Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:12 pm
Excuse me, "scalp your opponents"? Really? Scalping? In Conquistador-era Florida? Hooooooookay.

Being born and raised in Florida I would have accepted Cheesy, but since I couldn't have the Chief's wearing cutoff jean shorts I'm really not sure I follow your post. There is plenty of evidence to suggest the Timucua were the first tribe to witness the landing of Ponce de Leon in St Augustine in 1513. Then in 1539, Hernando de Soto, a very famous Spanish Conquistador led an army of more than 500 men through the western parts of Timucua territory. In 1564 a French expedition under Laudonnière brought an artist with them, Jacques Le Moyne de Morgues. He painted numerous scenes of Timucuan life which were then published in engravings done by the Flemish artist Theodor De Bry in 1591. Le Moyne's picture "Trophies and Ceremonies after a Victory", show three poles upon which "trophies" were suspended. Flanking a pole with a scalp at its top is a pole with an arm tied to it and another with a leg fastened to it in the same way. It shows rigid strands (vines maybe) that spiral down the poles, connecting the top of the trophy to the ground. The "trophies" are meant to be the surviving physical attachments to which the souls of the slain warriors remain fixed. The arm, scalp, and leg probably represent respectively, executive power, spirit, and motion.

So basically, at least the Timucua scalped their enemies during the time Conquistadors were in Florida.

[Gilligan]

Perhaps make chiefs start neutral?

[VicFontaine]

Seamus, it's a good map. Don't fret the accusations. I know it's hard, but some people have a reputation for being...well...being certain ways. As is, it's a welcomed addition, and I'm investigating doing a similar-style Mississippi map inspired by yours. Not so much to the detail or originality, but simpler and similar. Thanks for the hard work. It shows.

[Seamus76]

We should be getting up a new update soon which will fix a double bonus problem we had in the XML, as well as fixing the number of starting territories for 1v1 games, which should be 8 per person, not 14. This should lower the chances of drop bonuses, which we've seen in a couple of games because of the additional starting territories.

Two other issues I need some feedback on:
- Are the bonuses for the Choctaw and Creek a little too much? From what we've seen those have been the focus of a lot of games, and once held provide enough troops to pretty much take the game. We were thinking maybe lower Choctaw to +2, and Creek to +3 or even both to +2.
- Along those lines it seems Apalachee might be a big of a clog, specifically JE-2, making it very difficult to break any bonus on Creek, which again might be a little much at +4. Our thought on that would be to change the border allowing CH-C to attack CR-1, as well as changing the border between CH-C and JE-2 to allow CH-C to attack AP-3. This will give players a second way to get into that area, and make AP-3 a viable option. Right now it seems AP-3 is pretty much never attacked.

These are just a few early observations, but might help keep the games a little more even, and open the gameplay up a bit in that area. We would like the focus to be more on the War Zone and not the bonuses in the Northwest.

Thoughts?

[natty dread]

b00060, your accusations are totally ridiculous. If you set up public games, anyone can join them, and if you set up games on a beta map, you know you take a risk of playing an untested, unknown map.

Of course mapmakers will want to play as many games as possible on their new map - it's called beta-testing! Some make private games, others make/join public ones, it's up to the mapmaker. But claiming that they are "farming" or something is a totally ridiculous accusation. Actually, mapmakers usually suck on their own maps.

It's a game, man. It's supposed to be played for fun. You win and lose points, and even if you lose it's not the end of the world. You won't starve in real life if you lose some game points. Get some damn perspective.

[b00060]

Obliviously you didn't see my real gripe which was vj taking advantage the fact he knew BOB would freeze me in a freestyle game and taking advantage. They wanna play yes, perhaps set up their own games or ask permission would be great, but that is not the complaint. The complaint was him taking advantage of a KNOWN issue that only he knew about at the time, so for you to say that is totally ridiculous is totally ridiculous.

[AndyDufresne]

We should probably take discussion about etiquette and conduct to the Foundry Discussion or General Discussion forums. Lets leave the map topic about how best to improve the map while in BETA.


--Andy

[Flapcake]

Obliviously you didn't see my real gripe which was vj taking advantage the fact he knew BOB would freeze me in a freestyle game and taking advantage. They wanna play yes, perhaps set up their own games or ask permission would be great, but that is not the complaint. The complaint was him taking advantage of a KNOWN issue that only he knew about at the time, so for you to say that is totally ridiculous is totally ridiculous.

I dont understand what you try to achieve in this thread, You seem to have an issue you are not happy with, take it with mods in private and let them decide if it is okay or not, we've heard what you had to say, but let it rest for now.

This thread are about changes / improvements to the map, not to express anger about personal problems, sorry for my straightforward way.

[ender516]

Is there a problem with BOB and this map? I have seen no report in either the BOB thread or the Tools Suggestions and Bugs forum.

[b00060]

Yes BOB does not work on this map.

[ender516]

Maybe you could post what exactly is wrong? I am not playing any games on this map right now, but I entered Game 9933015 and BOB seems to do what I would expect: highlighting, text map, etc.

[thenobodies80]

Yes BOB does not work on this map.

Please if you have problem with tools, discuss this issue in the tools section of the site. The map topic is just to talk about possible improvement the map or possible issues of the map, just that. Tools are not related with the foundry. Said that I see ender516 knows about your problem, then you're in good hands, just you have to move in the right section of the site.

Obliviously you didn't see my real gripe which was vj taking advantage the fact he knew BOB would freeze me in a freestyle game and taking advantage. They wanna play yes, perhaps set up their own games or ask permission would be great, but that is not the complaint. The complaint was him taking advantage of a KNOWN issue that only he knew about at the time, so for you to say that is totally ridiculous is totally ridiculous.

It's not related with the map development, if you think there's something wrong please use the appropriate forum for this issue.
Must be said that it doesn't seems to me a known issue, at least here in the foundry, moreover if like ender516 said the BOB problem is just for you.
Anyways, also this one it's not a foundry thing so I don't want to derail the topic in the wrong way.
Please come back to talk about the map and how to improve it

Thanks in advance for your collaboration,
Nobodies

[Seamus76]

by Seamus76 on Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:44 pm
We should be getting up a new update soon which will fix a double bonus problem we had in the XML, as well as fixing the number of starting territories for 1v1 games, which should be 8 per person, not 14. This should lower the chances of drop bonuses, which we've seen in a couple of games because of the additional starting territories.

Two other issues I need some feedback on:
- Are the bonuses for the Choctaw and Creek a little too much? From what we've seen those have been the focus of a lot of games, and once held provide enough troops to pretty much take the game. We were thinking maybe lower Choctaw to +2, and Creek to +3 or even both to +2.
- Along those lines it seems Apalachee might be a big of a clog, specifically JE-2, making it very difficult to break any bonus on Creek, which again might be a little much at +4. Our thought on that would be to change the border allowing CH-C to attack CR-1, as well as changing the border between CH-C and JE-2 to allow CH-C to attack AP-3. This will give players a second way to get into that area, and make AP-3 a viable option. Right now it seems AP-3 is pretty much never attacked.

These are just a few early observations, but might help keep the games a little more even, and open the gameplay up a bit in that area. We would like the focus to be more on the War Zone and not the bonuses in the Northwest.

Thoughts?

Yes, thank you TNB80, let's please get back on topic. I need some help with the ideas above. And also we just found out that the Tomahawks are showing up as a +2 auto-deploy, instead of a straight up +2 bonus, which I have let V.J. know to fix ASAP. That is a major one we will fix right away. But please let me know about the ideas to open the Northwest terrts up, and reducing their bonuses. Thanks.

[koontz1973]

Seamus, posted this in the game we have going on, but I think keeping the T/H and B/A as an auto deploy works better. Gives someone who does not get that top left an option to grab some armies. As in a lot of the games (1v1), one player will get more of those territs than the other. An easy bonus to grab with some nice dice and one got, easy to hold.

The three bonuses top left need to come down for balance reasons alone. 2,2,3 would be my suggestion.

[Seamus76]

by koontz1973 on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:47 am
Seamus, posted this in the game we have going on, but I think keeping the T/H and B/A as an auto deploy works better. Gives someone who does not get that top left an option to grab some armies. As in a lot of the games (1v1), one player will get more of those territs than the other. An easy bonus to grab with some nice dice and one got, easy to hold.

The three bonuses top left need to come down for balance reasons alone. 2,2,3 would be my suggestion.

I agree on the bonuses. Hopefully once the week starts we'll get a little more feedback in the thread on that, and maybe changing some of the borders I mentioned. As for the auto deploy of +2 on the Tomahawks and Bows, instead of +2 bonus, I'm not a fan of that, plus the +2 is still a way for people to get extra armies to better take out bonuses by being able to place them in other areas and not just on the auto deploy.

[koontz1973]

If you keep them as a normal bonus, then you will need to increase there amount. A 3 territ continent with that many borders is worth more than two. Also, you need to make them attractive for players to grab hold off.