Conquer Club

This is, easily, "won" of my favorite maps. Very appreciative of your time and effort. I wish I had noticed this prior to the map going live, but I do wish the legend was clear that the invasion craft are not part of the ship bonuses of "hold any 3 of same ownership and get +2" or whatever it is. In all the games I've played on this map, I never noticed they weren't until I took the invasion craft on Round 2 of a game I'm in now in an effort to get that bonus. DUH! lol

Well done, Ace!

-Deuce

You have that you get +1 for "every 3 ship's of the same ownership." You then have that a flag "Denotes ship's ownership." From this alone, it would be logical that every flag denotes the ownership of a "ship." However, I had to go into the XML to discover that Landing Craft apparently do not count as "ships." I don't see this clarified anywhere on the map.

I would suggest, either don't use the flags on the landing craft or put in the key that landing craft don't count as ships (even though it looks like subs, carriers, cruisers and destroyers all count as ships).

... or, of course, count landing craft as part of the bonus.

agentcom wrote:You have that you get +1 for "every 3 ship's of the same ownership." You then have that a flag "Denotes ship's ownership." From this alone, it would be logical that every flag denotes the ownership of a "ship." However, I had to go into the XML to discover that Landing Craft apparently do not count as "ships." I don't see this clarified anywhere on the map.

I would suggest, either don't use the flags on the landing craft or put in the key that landing craft don't count as ships (even though it looks like subs, carriers, cruisers and destroyers all count as ships).

... or, of course, count landing craft as part of the bonus.

This is what I was saying above, too.

VicFontaine wrote:

agentcom wrote:You have that you get +1 for "every 3 ship's of the same ownership." You then have that a flag "Denotes ship's ownership." From this alone, it would be logical that every flag denotes the ownership of a "ship." However, I had to go into the XML to discover that Landing Craft apparently do not count as "ships." I don't see this clarified anywhere on the map.

I would suggest, either don't use the flags on the landing craft or put in the key that landing craft don't count as ships (even though it looks like subs, carriers, cruisers and destroyers all count as ships).

... or, of course, count landing craft as part of the bonus.

This is what I was saying above, too.

Hm, agentcom makes a good point.


--Andy

I understand what you are saying. The flags were there to show ownership for the invasion authorisation bonus and the bombardment, it wasn't intended for them to be part of the ship bonus (as that was for the warships). I do see the confusion, but I don't want them to be part of the bonus. Any thoughts on how to clear that up?

What if you used the same thing, except with a circle shape for the invasion craft? I think that would clear things up sufficiently.

-Sully

Not sure if this has been raised/noticed before or if it would be considered a problem (it is annoying though):

In trench you can not attack out of the HQ in the move you take it as its not a killer neutral although it does kill 5 of the troops. So unless you already have a large deploy and probably dont need the bonus its going to be difficult to take.

I was unsure if this would be classed as a killer neutral but the fact that troops are stuck there tells me it is not.

Yes HQ has just a 5 troops decay "due to stress"(lower left legend) and it's not a killer neutral. This means you can attack further in the same turn if you are playing a trench game. You're correct, in a trench game it could be good to have more armies before to think to take it.
I don't know if this thing makes it worth a change considering that it affects just this type of games?

thenobodies80 wrote:Yes HQ has just a 5 troops decay "due to stress"(lower left legend) and it's not a killer neutral. This means you can attack further in the same turn if you are playing a trench game. You're correct, in a trench game it could be good to have more armies before to think to take it.
I don't know if this thing makes it worth a change considering that it affects just this type of games?

If you're just talking about this map, I would say no. But, you have to think how it would effect other maps with decays... Dust Bowl would be majorly effected for trench play, it would make Antarctica different at well. To me, nothing should be changed. That's not how adjacent attacks (AKA trench) is supposed to work.

I just found a bug in the xml of this map:

Code: Select all

<continent>
<name>[subcontinent] all 4 U.S. missile bases</name>
<bonus>0</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Huntsville (U.S. Missile Base)</territory>
<territory>Nike Missile Site HM-69 (U.S. Missile Base)</territory>
<territory>Camaguey (Soviet Missile Base)</territory>
<territory>Nord-Est (U.S. Missile Base)</territory>
</components>
</continent>

Camaguey does not belong there, but instead Guantanamo Bay should be part of this continent.

docchaos wrote:I just found a bug in the xml of this map:

Code: Select all

<continent>
<name>[subcontinent] all 4 U.S. missile bases</name>
<bonus>0</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Huntsville (U.S. Missile Base)</territory>
<territory>Nike Missile Site HM-69 (U.S. Missile Base)</territory>
<territory>Camaguey (Soviet Missile Base)</territory>
<territory>Nord-Est (U.S. Missile Base)</territory>
</components>
</continent>

Camaguey does not belong there, but instead Guantanamo Bay should be part of this continent.

How has this not been noticed until now?!

The bonus has never come up in any game I have played. Its always a battle for the ships every game that I have ever played (Singles or team games). Not multi player singles though only 1 v 1.

So in the last few months we've realized that there were errors on classic, CMC and Bamboo Jack. Wow.

AndyDufresne wrote:

VicFontaine wrote:

agentcom wrote:You have that you get +1 for "every 3 ship's of the same ownership." You then have that a flag "Denotes ship's ownership." From this alone, it would be logical that every flag denotes the ownership of a "ship." However, I had to go into the XML to discover that Landing Craft apparently do not count as "ships." I don't see this clarified anywhere on the map.

I would suggest, either don't use the flags on the landing craft or put in the key that landing craft don't count as ships (even though it looks like subs, carriers, cruisers and destroyers all count as ships).

... or, of course, count landing craft as part of the bonus.

This is what I was saying above, too.

Hm, agentcom makes a good point.


--Andy

I haven't played this map since that time, but it looks like this never got addressed. I think the key is misleading. And the only time people notice it is when it screws them over.

agentcom wrote:I haven't played this map since that time, but it looks like this never got addressed. I think the key is misleading. And the only time people notice it is when it screws them over.

Ace does come over here any more. Problems like this may never get solved. But I do not think it is an issue. The bottom left legend states flags=ships ownership with the +1 for with of the same ownership. But the top right legend clearly has the landing craft symbols and names them landing craft, not ships.

koontz1973 wrote:

agentcom wrote:I haven't played this map since that time, but it looks like this never got addressed. I think the key is misleading. And the only time people notice it is when it screws them over.

Ace does come over here any more. Problems like this may never get solved. But I do not think it is an issue. The bottom left legend states flags=ships ownership with the +1 for with of the same ownership. But the top right legend clearly has the landing craft symbols and names them landing craft, not ships.

That's too bad that it might not get fixed. I still stand by my opinion though that the legend is misleading. Nobodies could give permission to edit the map, but I doubt that anyone is going to want to take the time to edit this map for what I admit will be an infrequent problem.

agentcom wrote:

koontz1973 wrote:

agentcom wrote:I haven't played this map since that time, but it looks like this never got addressed. I think the key is misleading. And the only time people notice it is when it screws them over.

Ace does come over here any more. Problems like this may never get solved. But I do not think it is an issue. The bottom left legend states flags=ships ownership with the +1 for with of the same ownership. But the top right legend clearly has the landing craft symbols and names them landing craft, not ships.

That's too bad that it might not get fixed. I still stand by my opinion though that the legend is misleading. Nobodies could give permission to edit the map, but I doubt that anyone is going to want to take the time to edit this map for what I admit will be an infrequent problem.

threaten to remove the map and his medal until he rectifies the problem.

I already did some changes to the map in past with Ace permission.
If one of you can make a list of all changes needed I can discuss it with Ace an see what we can do.

Please remember that I can work only on the final images (no layers...it's a long story) so please don't be too pretentious!

Nobodies

thenobodies80 wrote:I already did some changes to the map in past with Ace permission.
If one of you can make a list of all changes needed I can discuss it with Ace an see what we can do.

Please remember that I can work only on the final images (no layers...it's a long story) so please don't be too pretentious!

Nobodies

(... a year later. Sorry I don't think about these things until I play the map again and am bothered by the same problem)

I'm not sure what the best way of going about it would be, especially since you don't have access to the layered file. I think what I would do is just erase the word "ship's" from the bottom right side of the key in the bottom left corner. Then it would say that flags "Denote ownership" while removing the confusing reference to ships. That might be the easiest fix.

The best solution would be to note somewhere on the map the difference between ships and invasion craft. I think the best and simplest solution had this been done by the original author would be to replace the text in that same legend with "Denotes ownership and ships and invasion craft," thus indicating that these are distinct things.

Is the issue that invasion craft are not part of the shifts bonus?

If that is the issue a possible solution could be to put "Invasion crafts are not part of the ships bonus" or something similar along the bottom of the map to the right of the legend. This could solve the issue.

Yes, that would work as well.

Once you know it, it's not hard to remember, especially for me since I've come over here and commented on it. But I just would hate if someone new to the map made the same mistake that I did in reading the key and it ruined a game for them.

Some constructive criticism for the Foundry: sometimes I think you guys get so caught up in these maps that you don't look at them how a first timer would. I think the explanatory keys are the weak spot of a few maps. But I can see how you wouldn't think twice about them if you already knew how they worked from helping in the development of the map. And I know you guys concentrate a lot on the gameplay and overall visual aspect. So I get it. Just maybe some room for improvement, IMO.

I'll contact the mapmaker.

you rang?

I like the idea that we add something that says "Invasion craft are not part of the ships bonus" as they were not intended to be. A ship meant something bigger than a speedboat.

No I don't have the image, we work with what we've got.

Also just for the record - the Foundry Foreman (current or future) has full permission to make any changes deemed necessary to the map in perpetuity.