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Version 11.6 FRANCE 2.1

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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Aleena on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:39 pm

Looking at the other maps that have recently been passed - I feel if this is the best he can do - it's about average of what is currently being excepted - so it should go through - he should only concentrate on the mechanics and game play of the map from here on out....
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:51 am

Aleena you are missing the point. If you really look at the mountains on this map, with the shadow they seem to "float" above the map, this is not acceptable. As for the samples you posted, they all blend in to the map and are "part" of the map, not "pasted" on or "floating"above the map. I don't care if the shadows are there or not. If you use shadows you need to add the shadow at the base of the mountains have the shadow go up the side of the mountain, and make it lighter as you go up. If you take a look at my Fractured China map, you will see that I attempted to make the mountains more part of the map - though not perfect as I look at them now - not floating or pasted on. That is why I suggested getting rid of the shadows, and others have suggested using the color from the regions and bleed them up the side of the mountain a little. These are easy suggestions to do in Photoshop. See what RedBaron0 posted as an example of mountains, they work though they need to be a little more pronounced. The last example you gave of just little lines, I believe that came from the Three Kingdoms of China map, which in that case is in keeping of the theme of the map. If look at old maps of china you will see that this is one of the styles of mountains they used,, not some 3D rendering of mountains.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:46 am

A drawn line is the THEME of the map - so it's ok...

Let me ask what you think the theme of this map is???
This is an original work of this map designer which is themed only after his own imagination and not trying to copy the style'lings of some other map designer from before - So to claim that the drawn line is good graphics for the theme - then you can not challenge the mountains in this map - for you do not fully understand this designer's true vision and theme... Maybe these mountains fit his own vision and theme perfectly - did you ask him?

But let's put that aside - If the designer does wish to change the mountains a bit and is unable to have the skill set to blend as suggested above - I noticed that all your major regions are separated by a bold black line - continuing this THEME - you can pull this around the mountains to indicate the non-possible regions...

Something like this:
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:09 pm

We're not going to argue with you Aleena.
Main Foundry Workshop: Graphics wrote:Image Graphical Benchmarks - Both large and small maps' aesthetics must be to a presentable Foundry standard and must also satisfy the community at large.
Graphical benchmarks are subjective and it is difficult to legislate for them: the Foundry Team members are the final arbiters of map quality, and will ultimately judge whether or not a map meets the Conquer Club standard.[/list]

All map makers are expected to take all graphical comments into consideration and must either accept them or give sound reasoning as to why not to take particular advice.

You can read more in the [Official] Conquer Club Mapmaker Handbook - Graphics.

So please if you have any ideas or suggestions on how to improve the pasted on/floating mountain problem, then do so. Please don't come down on on any of us because you feel the mountains are good as they are. Consider this an official warning to not continue down this path. I think I can speak for the others map-makers you have helped, we would hate to lose someone who has so much insight into game-play and is considered a valuable asset to the foundry!!
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Aleena on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:03 pm

ALL MAP MAKERS ARE EXPECTED TO TAKE ALL GRAPHICAL COMMENTS INTO CONSIDERATION AND MUST EITHER ACCEPT THEM OR GIVE SOUND REASONING AS WHY NOT TO TAKE PARTICULAR ACTION.

Ok, I've also been suggesting other ways the designer might be able to please (not the community of thousands of players) but the 3 or 4 who do not like it - as I also suggested blending, shadows, even recently drawing a border around it....

It clearly states that the designer should think about the advice, but if they disagree give sound reasoning as why.... And as you clearly stated earlier that an upside down "V" is a great graphic for a mountain in some THEME of some ,maps - then if one's THEME is a solid sound reasoning - then that is all I'm trying to support here... Maybe this design is his own THEME - and based on everything you said - then that should be good enough as long as the designer themselves say so..... No arguing, just trying to support the designer and follow all the rules and guidelines that you all seem to point out - though you might not all agree to your own rules....
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby RjBeals on Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:03 pm

I mean seriously - the mountains look bad. What's the first thing someone will notice when they look at this map - floating mountains. Yours with the black border around them look better.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby pamoa on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:24 am

all this will end in an abandonned map :(
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Aleena on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:12 am

ya, that was what i was trying to stop - yet everyone kept pushing and fighting over one detail telling him to change it then change it back again .... I was trying to find simple solutions with-in his ability and/or suggest leave good enough alone or his own image and theme needs is with-in his own grasp - yet to try to push him beyond - might just frustrate to abandonment...

Now this might be a great loss to the site, the players, and a huge waste of time for all of us whom tried to support it and whom worked on it....((Themes and ability: you can not make a modern metal working artist paint a beautiful Mona Lisa - for his tool sets and skill sets might be great - they are not the same. We should broaden our artistic view and allow for more creative expressions "while still maintaining quality" but stop pinch holding players designs into a narrow view of what a few might think is with-in line)) If Pacaso "a world known great artist" was here making a map for us it seems that map would never be finished for the few in the Foundry will say it looks like a 3rd grader could do it - which really shows their narrow mindedness to ones craft"

Hopefully he will return - for I think my last suggestion is something he could do, and would solve the issue....
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Lancelot du Lac on Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:13 am

Aleena thank you for trying to move this map. They seem stopped by dark forces.

Your suggestion is interesting, but it does not seem to fit in this map. I think it is much too dark. I don't already have the border 's regions (too dark IMO). In addition, the mountains are not enough floating ;-)

Koontz offered his help, so we will be able to judge his work.

But we never give up, we are French !
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby pamoa on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:17 am

Lancelot du Lac wrote:But we never give up, we are French !

La Garde meurt mais ne se rend pas ... merde (The Guard dies and does not surrender ... shit)
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:28 am

Lancelot du Lac wrote:Koontz offered his help, so we will be able to judge his work.

Judge away.
Madrid, Magyarország, Jakarta, 1982, Knights, Rorke's Drift, Vertex/ Austrum, Labyrinth and Phantasia Altitudinis. Some good, some bad, but all different and all fit the themes of the work given.

Lance, sent you a PM, looking forward to the files.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:23 am

Wow, I don't really know where to start with this one.

Aleena wrote:a lot of this is subjective...
What one of you might think looks better - used more of a so called skillful touch - might be "trash" in my opinion - where a more simple approach might actually give some maps a little more class - what is currently happening is a few of you have decided how ALL maps should look - now instead of having a beautiful selection of different types of artistic views on a map style - slowly they are all starting to look alike...
You're right about the process being subjective, but when multiple people have the same "subjective" opinion about the mountains not fitting the map, then wouldn't you as the map maker think there might be something that needs to be changed, and want to challenge yourself to come up with something better?

Aleena wrote:I can point out 4 or 5 maps that are either in BETA right now or recently just got out of BETA which have worst mountains or art work - in my opinion then this map does.....
Again, some of these are certainly subjective, but to say the graphics of a map that is in BETA, and has undergone the same, most likely more, scrutiny then this one, is somewhat ridiculous and insulting. Two of your examples are my maps, and while I welcome all opinions, positive and negative, I think your passion, and need to reject authority is clouding your artistic judgement. Tribal War - Ancient Israel, which caries the theme of desert, the middle east, wind swept sand, etc. has mountains that fit that theme. They are desert mountains and colored as such, like the land itself. While not every set of mountains is perfect, they all blend into the map, and again fit the OVERALL theme.

To that point. You like to mention the "theme" of this map, and the mountains, which is great, and a great thing to discuss, but you can't have one theme for the map, and one for the mountains, and that's exactly what it seems you're trying say. Basically, let the mountains stand as they are, they are the best that he can do, etc. etc. One, they don't fit the OVERALL theme because they stand out like a sore thumb, and as a map maker I would challenge myself to come up with something that looked "great", not just "average", as you say they are. As for Three Kingdoms of China, and the mountains which are just a line, to me they actually one of my favorite, and best parts of the map. They are obviously just lines, but it's the variation in size, and final placement that takes a lot of patience, time, and skill. Also, they fit the OVERALL theme of the map, which is obvious when you look at the older versions of the map with the crappy mountains. These didn't come along until I was almost completely done with the map, and had already done the small map. I wasn't happy that I had to redo them, as I was happy with the ones I had at the moment, but thanks to people telling me they could be better, I worked on them again. I didn't bitch and complain, too much :D , and I certainly never considered giving up because of a little more work.

Aleena wrote:It's obvious you guys are not using the same standard to judge all these maps... What are some your friends from past games, that is why their art work passes and this guys does not? Or did they slide ya something under the table?? If so how much, I want to know... I might need to do the same...
This is funny, a joke right? So you think that instead of spending over a year and a half to produce Tribal War - Florida, and the months and months spent on my other 3 maps, all I had to do was PayPal a couple of people? As isaiah said, we would hate to lose someone who has so much game-play knowledge, but when it comes to graphics, come talk to me once you have a map or two finally in production, and you really know what it takes to voluntarily sacrifice your time and energy for thousands of people you don't know, who may or may not think your work is crap.

I am certainly not trying to be rude, and apologize if it comes off that way, but I too am passionate about the site, maps, and certainly my maps.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Aleena on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:01 am

You have some good points - and I did not mean to put any map in a bad light...

In fact I like your maps - and think you did a great job - the issue was the struggling of this designer, the poor feedback from (not the community) but few whom thinks they know better, the lack of actual support....

If we see a Designer is about to jump out of a window - why push him....
We should talk him down, and be a little more supportive and find better solutions that the designer can see in the near future as an achievable target - then once there we can look for the next step if it is truely needed...

Many seem to think I just want to start fights - that can not be further from the trueth - all fights I like to start is on the battlefield of one of these great games...

What I do want - is to give more support and positive feed back to the designer - it is him who is pulling out his hair..
Also to try to insure that if someone is going to leave a suggestion - please make it a helpful one - for some of the suggestions given was anything but helpful...

I said my peace - if you wanted to hear it or not - so I'll leave this thread up to the rest of you executioners...
May the ghosts of this map not haunt ya.....




You have a great spirit Lancelot du Lac - and yes, please never give up....
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby TheDavor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:28 am

sorry but the "Loire Atlantique", must not have this shield, everybody in Britanny will tell you this
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Mishalex on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:32 am

Haha, i'm from Brittany and i'm telling you it must have ;)
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:43 pm

Aleena wrote:You have some good points - and I did not mean to put any map in a bad light...

In fact I like your maps - and think you did a great job - the issue was the struggling of this designer, the poor feedback from (not the community) but few whom thinks they know better, the lack of actual support....

If we see a Designer is about to jump out of a window - why push him....
We should talk him down, and be a little more supportive and find better solutions that the designer can see in the near future as an achievable target - then once there we can look for the next step if it is truely needed...

Many seem to think I just want to start fights - that can not be further from the trueth - all fights I like to start is on the battlefield of one of these great games...

What I do want - is to give more support and positive feed back to the designer - it is him who is pulling out his hair..
Also to try to insure that if someone is going to leave a suggestion - please make it a helpful one - for some of the suggestions given was anything but helpful...

I said my peace - if you wanted to hear it or not - so I'll leave this thread up to the rest of you executioners...
May the ghosts of this map not haunt ya.....




You have a great spirit Lancelot du Lac - and yes, please never give up....


Seriously? I count at least 5 different people who have been willing to help draw mountains for this map, myself included. It seems more to me that there is no give how this bloody things are drawn...yet more than few people have given advise on how to tweak even these mountains to a more acceptable product, but those options have NOT been explored at all. I understand, seriously I do, I've created exactly 2 maps with a total time of about 4 YEARS of Foundry time before they even sniffed beta. Honestly I believe its lack of knowledge of the graphics program/lack of flexibility of said program, but I cannot say for sure what is more of the problem, or even if it truly IS a problem. If koontz can get the map to a good place, then great, lets get this party moving, if not, I suggest downloading GIMP and doing what you can to import your files over there. Please tell me I'm off base and everything is cool, and you can figure this all out, cuz I don't like sounding like a monger, all I have ever wanted, is to help.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:12 pm

Here is an example of blending the mountains "into" the map itself. Notice that you really can't see any "sharp" lines where the mountains meet the map. This isn't perfect but it gives you an idea of what we are looking for. I used a combination of Gaussian Blur, smudge tool, and blur tool all in Photoshop.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby Mishalex on Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:11 am

WOW, very nice !!!!
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:02 am

Come on Lance, I sent the mountains to you yesterday. Lets see them on the map at the right size please. Then we can judge.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby pamoa on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:59 am

isaiah40 wrote:Here is an example of blending the mountains "into" the map itself. Notice that you really can't see any "sharp" lines where the mountains meet the map. This isn't perfect but it gives you an idea of what we are looking for. I used a combination of Gaussian Blur, smudge tool, and blur tool all in Photoshop.
and on illustrator?
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:51 pm

Those features are available with Illustrator.
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:59 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:Those features are available with Illustrator.

While true, I only have Photoshop CS6, which by the way has some tools from Illustrator in it!
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:28 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:Those features are available with Illustrator.


RB0, is that after rasterization?
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:36 pm

cairnswk wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Those features are available with Illustrator.


RB0, is that after rasterization?


I dunno cairns, it just sounded to me that pamoa was asking if Gaussian Blur, smudge tool, and blur tool is available with Illustrator.(they are) Though I do hear they are a pain to use in older versions of Illustrator. :/
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Re: Version 11.2.2 [ [14 August 2013 p28/28] FRANCE 2.1

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:55 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Those features are available with Illustrator.


RB0, is that after rasterization?


I dunno cairns, it just sounded to me that pamoa was asking if Gaussian Blur, smudge tool, and blur tool is available with Illustrator.(they are) Though I do hear they are a pain to use in older versions of Illustrator. :/


yes, indeed, my experience with doing NZ, was that trying to use the brush tool like a paintbrush as in PS or FW, is not possible because essentially Illustrator is a vector program.
paintbrush images have to be imported from my understanding, unless your image is that large that you can achieve the same result with the vector brush.
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