The Fight for Alexander's Empire [Quenched]

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Postby Mr. K on Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:43 pm

I considered that, but the font size is already really crowded in the territories around the Agean.

Does everyone agree that the smushed up version I posted looks ugly, or is it just me?
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Postby Jota on Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:57 pm

Yeah. I'm sorry to have to say it, but it does. I wonder if there's some sort of graphical trickery/distortion you could do that would let you lop off some of the right side of the image without having to drop any countries. Maybe involving redrawing some of the borders on that side of the map. But that could be a lot of work, especially when it's not certain whether or not it'd help.
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Postby Mr. K on Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:32 pm

Jota wrote:Yeah. I'm sorry to have to say it, but it does.

No need to be sorry, just wanted to make sure.

I'll think of something next time i'm working on it. Until then, feel free to keep suggestions coming.
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Postby kronas on Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:03 pm

sweetness! i love it!!!
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Postby rocksolid on Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:41 pm

Shouldn't it be Macedonia instead of Makedonia? BAA HAA HAA HAA HAA!

But seriously, I think you want MesOpotamia instead of MesApotamia. Land between the waters instead of table of waters.
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Postby Mr. K on Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:50 pm

haha, actually you're right, it is apparently officially spelled Mesopotamia. I just assumed it was with an A, because (here we go again) the name actually is Greek, meaning "between the rivers" and "potamia" is "rivers" and "Mesa" is "inside" so I just assumed. But google tells me you're correct, so i'll change it next time.
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Postby Mr. K on Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:27 pm

Image

I think I got the size issue straightened out.

Its coming along pretty nicely, i'm not sure what else needs to be done. If anyone could give me some suggestions on the continent bonuses that would be wonderful. Other than that i'm about ready to start working on the XML.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:46 pm

I'm not a huge fan of the mountains.

Also, i'm not really sure what's going on in the legend.

The color of Mauryan Empire doesn't seem to go with the other colors in the map, very bright. Perhaps selucus norths' could be changed too.

The note at the bottom left blends in a lot, try making it stand out a bit more.

The line connecting corinth, cana, and cyrenacia, at first glance they strike me as attack routes. Perhaps put something in the legend specifying what are actually lines indicating attack routes.

When you did the resizing, alexander's head got thinned out. Perhaps take the one in there out and put in another that hasn't undergone any size alterations, well at least only proportional ones.

Move mysia's name down a bit and to the right a bit, i think it will look a little clearer that way.

Each country looks like it is raised individually, perhaps they are separate in photoshop and the texture did that? Try to make them all one entity so that it doesn't look so "bubble wrap" like, as my first map attempt was described.

I'm not sure how i feel about the water. I like the color, i'm not sure how i feel about the texture specifically. I don't know what to suggest about it, maybe just take a look and see if you can come up with something more...watery?

The title is very small on the legend. You have a fair amount of unused space in the upper right. Give a try putting it separated up there, see how it looks. I'm not sure if it'll be better, but it might be.

I like the compass!
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Postby Mr. K on Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:58 pm

haha, no offense but i'm going to have to dissagree with almost every one of your suggestions.

Banana Stomper wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the mountains.

I wanted to use a graphic like some maps use, but I couldn't really find anything I liked.

Also, i'm not really sure what's going on in the legend.

The color of Mauryan Empire doesn't seem to go with the other colors in the map, very bright. Perhaps selucus norths' could be changed too.

I used the same exact color to match the continent colors with the names on the legend... Perhaps your eyes are alittle off. But the legend is a little messy looking, I was going to fix it up so all the words are clearer before I finish it off.

The note at the bottom left blends in a lot, try making it stand out a bit more.

cool


The line connecting corinth, cana, and cyrenacia, at first glance they strike me as attack routes. Perhaps put something in the legend specifying what are actually lines indicating attack routes.

Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. Those lines are borders. I dunno if you missed it earlier in the thread, but the Agean and the Mediterranean are going to be territories in this map. Those aren't attack routes or anything, they're just more borders. I dont see how they could be confused with anything else, because they're the exact same thing as the rest of the borders on the map, and the sea attack routes look are obvious and look very very different.

When you did the resizing, alexander's head got thinned out. Perhaps take the one in there out and put in another that hasn't undergone any size alterations, well at least only proportional ones.

Good call, i'll get that straightened out.

Move mysia's name down a bit and to the right a bit, i think it will look a little clearer that way.

I would but then there would be no room for the numbers. Im gonna leave it.

Each country looks like it is raised individually, perhaps they are separate in photoshop and the texture did that? Try to make them all one entity so that it doesn't look so "bubble wrap" like, as my first map attempt was described.

I actually spent a good bit of work making sure it would be this way. I did it on purpose and I really like the way it looks. So again, i'm not going to change this. I had it the other way in my other map, and I prefer this way for this map.

I'm not sure how i feel about the water. I like the color, i'm not sure how i feel about the texture specifically. I don't know what to suggest about it, maybe just take a look and see if you can come up with something more...watery?

Again I refuse to budge on the water. I'm especially happy with the way the water turned out. It gives the feel of an ancient map. I don't know if you know what I mean, but a theme in ancient maps always seems to have this very curvey textured crazy looking water, very similar to what I have here. I'm especially pleased with how it came out like this, so I'm going to keep it. I could make it more watery, but I definitely think it would take away from the feel. So again, i'm not going to change this.

The title is very small on the legend. You have a fair amount of unused space in the upper right. Give a try putting it separated up there, see how it looks. I'm not sure if it'll be better, but it might be.

Good call, i'll give it a shot.

I like the compass!

Thanks![/quote]
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Postby Banana Stomper on Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:23 pm

Banana Stomper wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the mountains.

I wanted to use a graphic like some maps use, but I couldn't really find anything I liked.


I'm not really concerned with whether or not you couldn't find graphics you like, they still don't look good as they are. Try different textures/colors/depths

Quote:

Also, i'm not really sure what's going on in the legend.

The color of Mauryan Empire doesn't seem to go with the other colors in
the map, very bright. Perhaps selucus norths' could be changed too.

I used the same exact color to match the continent colors with the names on the legend... Perhaps your eyes are alittle off. But the legend is a little messy looking, I was going to fix it up so all the words are clearer before I finish it off.


Those two comments were completely separate. I know the colors match in the legend and the map. That does not have anything to do with the colors not going with the rest of the colors on the map.

When i said i didn't understand what was going on in the legend, i was referring to the unclear graphics in there. What are they?

Quote:
The note at the bottom left blends in a lot, try making it stand out a bit more.

cool


???
Quote:
The line connecting corinth, cana, and cyrenacia, at first glance they strike me as attack routes. Perhaps put something in the legend specifying what are actually lines indicating attack routes.

Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. Those lines are borders. I dunno if you missed it earlier in the thread, but the Agean and the Mediterranean are going to be territories in this map. Those aren't attack routes or anything, they're just more borders. I dont see how they could be confused with anything else, because they're the exact same thing as the rest of the borders on the map, and the sea attack routes look are obvious and look very very different.


I understand that the lines in the sea are not attack routes,, and that they are borders and that they are in fact very different. What i'm saying is that at first glance, they strike me as attack routes. I was suggesting that in the legend you specify what are actually attack routes(The pink dotted lines) so that there is no mistake, or at least less likelyhood of thamistake being made. Not an unreasonable comment in my opinion...


[/quote]
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Postby Mr. K on Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:34 pm

The mountain comment was just explaining why it is what it is right now. I'll get a better graphic for the mountains before it goes live, but for now the reason it looks bad is cause I couldn't find anything better.

The graphic is just a meant to be like some sort of stone slab. Theres a barely visible picture of alexander on his horse there. I didn't want to make it too visible cause then it would make the writing harder to read and make it look less like a slab or marble or whatever. I don't really care if its not visible though, its not very important.

As for the colors not fitting on the map, perhaps the Mauryan Empire color could be dulled/darkened a bit, but other than that I disagree that the colors need to be changed.

I'll add something to the legend about the attack routes if theres space. If there isn't, though, I'm not going to bother making room unless everyone else agrees that they're confused by it. Personally I think its pretty obvious that its not an attack route, considering the only other attack sea route looks a whole lot different.

In response to the "???" I was just saying "cool", meaning "cool, i'll work on making it clearer."
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Postby reverend_kyle on Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:38 pm

Banana Stomper wrote:The note at the bottom left blends in a lot, try making it stand out a bit more.

The line connecting corinth, cana, and cyrenacia, at first glance they strike me as attack routes. Perhaps put something in the legend specifying what are actually lines indicating attack routes.



I like the compass!


I agree with all of this, this is exactly what i was going to say. Take that into account mr. t.
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Postby Jota on Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:06 pm

I don't think the "bubble-wrap" effect is too much of a problem in this map; I think it looks more like the borders are little grooves between the countries than the countries being raised. And I'm not picky about oceans, so I'll join the "it looks fine" camp for that.

I strongly agree with Banana about the bust, though.

I also think that the Agean and Med borders could easily be misunderstood, seeing as seas-as-countries is a new and unusual concept in Conquer Club. However, I think a better solution for it would be to shade those two seas a bit differently from the rest of the ocean (perhaps one slightly lighter, and the other slighter darker), to make them stand out more as territories.

Oh, and I agree that dulling the Mauryan Empire would look better.

As for bonuses, I'd raise Selucus to 4, since it can be attacked from so many different continents, in addition to having one more country than Selucus North. I'd also boost Antigonus to at least a 9, since it would take both seas to seriously reduce those borders, and both Kassander and Ptolomy will be wanting them for the same purpose.

Oh, and does Thrace border either of Mysia or Lydia? I'm guessing not, but those grey areas in Greece are kinda confusing. The Thessaly/Athens/Corinth connection is a bit iffy as well.
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Postby rocksolid on Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:55 am

Hey K,

For the mountains, you might try emulating the British Isles map. 3-d mountains are the latest fad on cc maps, and especially on a map you seem to want a bit of an antique flavour on, 2-d mts might be worth a try.

On that topic, I know you've said you like your water as is, but my first impression looking at it is that it's the same texture as the land. It's not on further inspection, but that inspection only happened when my attention was called to it. Though you're not too into suggestions on the matter, if you're looking to get that swirly-old-map/where the wild things water going on, you might also try and represent what you have now as textured relief as a 2-d swirliness for the water.

I concur with the concern about the water borders being perceived as attack routes. A lot of people have a lot of trouble reading maps and flip out when something catches them by surprise.

The positioning of the word 'Mesopotamia' is a tiny bit confusing just because of Ankh-Morpork on the Discworld map and the way the curving border around Mesopotamia and the country to the east seems continuous. Maybe just shift the word a little so it's clearer that it doesn't refer to the two countries together.

For bonuses, I think they're good except I would knock Kassander down from 4 to 3 - if you hold the Aegean, it's only 2 border countries and a bonus of 4 - too strong a continent for the map. I would also consider bumping Selucus from a 3 to a 4, but that's much less of an issue imo.

Lastly, not sure if your spelling of Aegean is an accepted variant - I didn't google it.
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Postby Marvaddin on Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:30 pm

Sorry, I didnt read all the thread. But anyway, I want point some things.

1- Is this a normal map, only with 2 sea countries that dont belong to any continents, right?
2- The idea is the seas can reduce the number of borders, only because the sea countries are there, is this correct? So, if I hold Agean Sea, no need to defend Makedonia, Thessaly, Athens and Corinth, is this right?
3- I really dont see any fights in these seas. Antigonus will not be a useful continent in the start... So Kassander will control Agean and Ptolomy will control Mediterrean without that much battles. It will probably be a strong point for alliances, like Brazil - North Africa. But I believe it isnt your goal.
4- The idea is really interesting, I like the possibility of only two countries to invade Kassander from Ptolomy, but the idea is under-explored, im my opinion. Maybe you could split the seas in some more countries, and mainly use other seas, too. That sea between Upper Media and Hyrcania, for example, would open another route between those countries. Shouldnt we think about this?
Image
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Postby rocksolid on Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:15 pm

I concur that Persian Gulf and Caspian Sea could be some interesting additions...
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:54 pm

[url=http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/dimitriosk/Alexander2.jpg]Image
Click for the large version.[/url]

I took Jota's suggestion and colored the seas a little to make it more obvious that they were territories. I also took Marv's suggestion and added the Caspian sea (but not the Persian Gulf. It didn't seem like it would make sense considering only one side of the persian gulf is part of the empire). To keep the 42 number, I took out Mysia and changed the Lydia/Caria border to reduce the crowded shoreline of Antigonus.

I took out the background for the key. While playing with it I accidentally made it invisible, and realized I like it better this way. Thoughts? I didn't delete it so I can easily put it back, but I think I like it better without any background.

Hmm, I also made up a graphic for the mountains that I like.

I fixed the visibility of the note, and moved the title to the top.

I took rocksolid's suggestion for the bonuses. Also I just noticed his Mesopotamia suggestion, and I agree and will fix that next time i'm at it.

Also fixed the Aegean typo.

EDIT: right now i'm working on it more. I'm fixing the mountain border, the title, and mesopotamia, so don't comment on those things until after i update this
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:18 pm

[url=http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/dimitriosk/Alexander3.jpg]Image
Click it[/url]

In the other picture, I forgot to close off the border between Armenia and Media. So while I was fixing that, I closed off the border between Media and East Cappadocia to make Antigonus' empire slightly more holdable.
Last edited by Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:18 pm

One thought i just had was about cyprus. What if the attack route was taken out from accross the mediterranean. I think it sorta makes sense that you would need to control the mediterranean to get that island. I also don't think it would really change the game play all that much, it wouldn't increase borders or anything, the only difference would be another players ability to thwart your attempts to take antigonus by heavily fortifying the mediterranean. I guess that just makes sense to me as a way to block off the region in real life. Its just a thought i had that might make the game play a lil more interesting.
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:28 pm

Banana Stomper wrote:One thought i just had was about cyprus. What if the attack route was taken out from accross the mediterranean. I think it sorta makes sense that you would need to control the mediterranean to get that island. I also don't think it would really change the game play all that much, it wouldn't increase borders or anything, the only difference would be another players ability to thwart your attempts to take antigonus by heavily fortifying the mediterranean. I guess that just makes sense to me as a way to block off the region in real life. Its just a thought i had that might make the game play a lil more interesting.

I thought about that but decided against it. Antigonus is already hard enough to hold. Also in real life, even if that entire sea is controlled, it wouldn't be that hard to travel from the island to those coasts. Imagine this:

You own an island off the coast of another country you own. Another empire holds the larger body of water around it. If they're hold over those waters is strong enough that they're able to stop you from sailing from the coast to your island, then they're probably strong enough to take your island (through a siege or otherwise).

This game would work much the same. If the owner of the mediterranean is strong enough, he can simply just conquer Cyprus or one of the Cappadocia's. If they're not strong enough to do that, than hypothetically they're not strong enough to keep the sea-ports that well guarded. :wink:

So yea, I almost didn't put them in for a little bit cause I was afraid they might not make sense, but that was how I justified their existance. Really it could go either way, but I prefer having them.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:00 pm

Mr. K wrote:
Banana Stomper wrote:One thought i just had was about cyprus. What if the attack route was taken out from accross the mediterranean. I think it sorta makes sense that you would need to control the mediterranean to get that island. I also don't think it would really change the game play all that much, it wouldn't increase borders or anything, the only difference would be another players ability to thwart your attempts to take antigonus by heavily fortifying the mediterranean. I guess that just makes sense to me as a way to block off the region in real life. Its just a thought i had that might make the game play a lil more interesting.

I thought about that but decided against it. Antigonus is already hard enough to hold. Also in real life, even if that entire sea is controlled, it wouldn't be that hard to travel from the island to those coasts. Imagine this:

You own an island off the coast of another country you own. Another empire holds the larger body of water around it. If they're hold over those waters is strong enough that they're able to stop you from sailing from the coast to your island, then they're probably strong enough to take your island (through a siege or otherwise).

This game would work much the same. If the owner of the mediterranean is strong enough, he can simply just conquer Cyprus or one of the Cappadocia's. If they're not strong enough to do that, than hypothetically they're not strong enough to keep the sea-ports that well guarded. :wink:

So yea, I almost didn't put them in for a little bit cause I was afraid they might not make sense, but that was how I justified their existance. Really it could go either way, but I prefer having them.


All my complaints are addressed i think it is great. Love it.
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Postby rocksolid on Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:26 pm

Not sure if this is a function of the background for the legend disappearing or not, but I can't really read Kassander any more.

With the different colours of water, Ptolomy looks like it might be water too. Maybe choose a different colour for that continent? (I likes a nice magenta, I does)

Dig the new mountains.
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Postby Jota on Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:43 pm

Rock makes a good point about the colors. Swapping Ptolomy's color with Mauryan's would probably do the trick. Also, does Caspian really need a northern border? It would probably look just fine if it were allowed to extend off the top of the map.

The mountains look nice. I think the legend looks fine without a background, although I wonder how it would look with a semi-transparent one. Also, Kassander is a little bit hard to read this way, but it's not too bad.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:37 pm

Beneficial is spelled wrong.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:42 pm

Hm,


---Perhaps look into a different explanation for the seas (if you need one at all). Maybe something like "The seas are not associated with any one continent but can be of strategic value."

--Andy
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