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The Fight for Alexander's Empire [Quenched]

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Postby rocksolid on Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:15 pm

I concur that Persian Gulf and Caspian Sea could be some interesting additions...
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:54 pm

[url=http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/dimitriosk/Alexander2.jpg]Image
Click for the large version.[/url]

I took Jota's suggestion and colored the seas a little to make it more obvious that they were territories. I also took Marv's suggestion and added the Caspian sea (but not the Persian Gulf. It didn't seem like it would make sense considering only one side of the persian gulf is part of the empire). To keep the 42 number, I took out Mysia and changed the Lydia/Caria border to reduce the crowded shoreline of Antigonus.

I took out the background for the key. While playing with it I accidentally made it invisible, and realized I like it better this way. Thoughts? I didn't delete it so I can easily put it back, but I think I like it better without any background.

Hmm, I also made up a graphic for the mountains that I like.

I fixed the visibility of the note, and moved the title to the top.

I took rocksolid's suggestion for the bonuses. Also I just noticed his Mesopotamia suggestion, and I agree and will fix that next time i'm at it.

Also fixed the Aegean typo.

EDIT: right now i'm working on it more. I'm fixing the mountain border, the title, and mesopotamia, so don't comment on those things until after i update this
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:18 pm

[url=http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/dimitriosk/Alexander3.jpg]Image
Click it[/url]

In the other picture, I forgot to close off the border between Armenia and Media. So while I was fixing that, I closed off the border between Media and East Cappadocia to make Antigonus' empire slightly more holdable.
Last edited by Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:18 pm

One thought i just had was about cyprus. What if the attack route was taken out from accross the mediterranean. I think it sorta makes sense that you would need to control the mediterranean to get that island. I also don't think it would really change the game play all that much, it wouldn't increase borders or anything, the only difference would be another players ability to thwart your attempts to take antigonus by heavily fortifying the mediterranean. I guess that just makes sense to me as a way to block off the region in real life. Its just a thought i had that might make the game play a lil more interesting.
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:28 pm

Banana Stomper wrote:One thought i just had was about cyprus. What if the attack route was taken out from accross the mediterranean. I think it sorta makes sense that you would need to control the mediterranean to get that island. I also don't think it would really change the game play all that much, it wouldn't increase borders or anything, the only difference would be another players ability to thwart your attempts to take antigonus by heavily fortifying the mediterranean. I guess that just makes sense to me as a way to block off the region in real life. Its just a thought i had that might make the game play a lil more interesting.

I thought about that but decided against it. Antigonus is already hard enough to hold. Also in real life, even if that entire sea is controlled, it wouldn't be that hard to travel from the island to those coasts. Imagine this:

You own an island off the coast of another country you own. Another empire holds the larger body of water around it. If they're hold over those waters is strong enough that they're able to stop you from sailing from the coast to your island, then they're probably strong enough to take your island (through a siege or otherwise).

This game would work much the same. If the owner of the mediterranean is strong enough, he can simply just conquer Cyprus or one of the Cappadocia's. If they're not strong enough to do that, than hypothetically they're not strong enough to keep the sea-ports that well guarded. :wink:

So yea, I almost didn't put them in for a little bit cause I was afraid they might not make sense, but that was how I justified their existance. Really it could go either way, but I prefer having them.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:00 pm

Mr. K wrote:
Banana Stomper wrote:One thought i just had was about cyprus. What if the attack route was taken out from accross the mediterranean. I think it sorta makes sense that you would need to control the mediterranean to get that island. I also don't think it would really change the game play all that much, it wouldn't increase borders or anything, the only difference would be another players ability to thwart your attempts to take antigonus by heavily fortifying the mediterranean. I guess that just makes sense to me as a way to block off the region in real life. Its just a thought i had that might make the game play a lil more interesting.

I thought about that but decided against it. Antigonus is already hard enough to hold. Also in real life, even if that entire sea is controlled, it wouldn't be that hard to travel from the island to those coasts. Imagine this:

You own an island off the coast of another country you own. Another empire holds the larger body of water around it. If they're hold over those waters is strong enough that they're able to stop you from sailing from the coast to your island, then they're probably strong enough to take your island (through a siege or otherwise).

This game would work much the same. If the owner of the mediterranean is strong enough, he can simply just conquer Cyprus or one of the Cappadocia's. If they're not strong enough to do that, than hypothetically they're not strong enough to keep the sea-ports that well guarded. :wink:

So yea, I almost didn't put them in for a little bit cause I was afraid they might not make sense, but that was how I justified their existance. Really it could go either way, but I prefer having them.


All my complaints are addressed i think it is great. Love it.
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Postby rocksolid on Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:26 pm

Not sure if this is a function of the background for the legend disappearing or not, but I can't really read Kassander any more.

With the different colours of water, Ptolomy looks like it might be water too. Maybe choose a different colour for that continent? (I likes a nice magenta, I does)

Dig the new mountains.
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Postby Jota on Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:43 pm

Rock makes a good point about the colors. Swapping Ptolomy's color with Mauryan's would probably do the trick. Also, does Caspian really need a northern border? It would probably look just fine if it were allowed to extend off the top of the map.

The mountains look nice. I think the legend looks fine without a background, although I wonder how it would look with a semi-transparent one. Also, Kassander is a little bit hard to read this way, but it's not too bad.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:37 pm

Beneficial is spelled wrong.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:42 pm

Hm,


---Perhaps look into a different explanation for the seas (if you need one at all). Maybe something like "The seas are not associated with any one continent but can be of strategic value."

--Andy
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Postby Bozo on Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:59 pm

Yes that does sound better than what is there now
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Postby gavin_sidhu on Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:36 am

8 for antigonus might b abit much, i think its more of a 7.
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Postby Mr. K on Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:24 pm

DAMN LOGIN THINGY.

I had a big long reply typed out, and it just got lost.


Here we go again! (this will be an abrigged version of the other post, I don't have the patience to re-write all of it!)

[url=http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/dimitriosk/Alexander4.jpg]Image
Click It[/url]

Things I addressed:

I changed Kassander's color to a lighter blue to increase readability on the legend as well as the territory names.

I changed around the Sea tints so that Ptolomy doesn't look like a part of the sea.

I made some of the smaller territory names larger to help readability (I made Byzantium bigger too, but its not in this map, I didn't feel like re-uploading for such a small fix).

I completely re-worded the note. I changed the focus of it to make it simpler.

Things I did not address:

I left the border on the Caspian Sea. I don't think it would make any sense if the map were to imply that the coasts of those "mysterious" foreign countries could be controlled in this map. I had a much longer explanation of this before, but I don't feel like going through it again. Hopefully you understand what I mean.

I also kept Antigonus' bonus at 8 (Again, I had a much longer explanation for this before). The reason is because its 9 territories with 9 borders. If you expand to the Seas, its 11 territories and 5 borders. Granted, the classic map's Asia is 12 territories and 5 borders and has a bonus of 8, but I think it will be a LOT harder to control the Seas, considering their importance in holding the Ptolomy and Kassander continents, which will be controllable earlier in the game and those borders will be stronger by the time someone can feasibly control Antigonus' continent.


I'm about ready for the Final Forge, I'm not really sure how this works, but as far as i'm concerned, if no one has anything else to say (considering no one has been saying much this whole thread it feels like), than I'm about ready for this one to launch.
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Postby Banana Stomper on Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:46 pm

Perhaps the title could could get some ancient pizzazz? It'd definitely add to the feel of the map.
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Postby Mr. K on Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:54 pm

Banana Stomper wrote:Perhaps the title could could get some ancient pizzazz? It'd definitely add to the feel of the map.


Hmm, true enough. I don't really know of any good ways I could do that, other than perhaps giving it a marbly (no pun intended) texture. I'll look into it though, feel free to toss up any suggestions.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:57 pm

Well lets see...

---Advice...type long posts up in notepad or some similar program, it's all I ever do now with long or important posts.

~~~~~

Anyways, the map is coming along...but I'll comment on a few things.

---Are you going to use the Army shadows?

---Have you considered doing anything with the legend. I'm not sure if it's my eyes or my computer, but sometimes kassander is a little hard to read. Perhaps a simple marble slate? If you do go the route of more decorative items, I'd do the same for the little description on the right of the map. I think some decorative aspect to this map would be nice, and even better if it was something perhaps historically linked, for a background in the legend or something similar.

---Have you experimented with thre mountains and their sizes? It'd be nice not to see a repeated pattern. Also currently, they remind me of delicious cookies.

---I see your reasoning for not having certain border territories touch the land off the battlefield, but really the Med. just looks silly. Places in Kassander touch it, so why can't it and the caspian sea?

---And by your logic for Antigonus, Kassander should be a 4 due to how hard the seas are to hold and same with Ptolomy. The bonus distribution is intresting, no real middle continent of 5-6...

---And maybe look into something elegant for the name, other than simple white text.



--Andy
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:31 pm

Image

AndyDufresne wrote:---Are you going to use the Army shadows?

---Have you considered doing anything with the legend. I'm not sure if it's my eyes or my computer, but sometimes kassander is a little hard to read. Perhaps a simple marble slate? If you do go the route of more decorative items, I'd do the same for the little description on the right of the map. I think some decorative aspect to this map would be nice, and even better if it was something perhaps historically linked, for a background in the legend or something similar.

---Have you experimented with thre mountains and their sizes? It'd be nice not to see a repeated pattern. Also currently, they remind me of delicious cookies.

---I see your reasoning for not having certain border territories touch the land off the battlefield, but really the Med. just looks silly. Places in Kassander touch it, so why can't it and the caspian sea?

---And by your logic for Antigonus, Kassander should be a 4 due to how hard the seas are to hold and same with Ptolomy. The bonus distribution is intresting, no real middle continent of 5-6...

---And maybe look into something elegant for the name, other than simple white text.

No army shadows. No room in a lot of the territories, and I think they would ugly up this map anyway. I don't think there will be any readability problem.

I gave the legend a Ancient Papyrus background. I like it.

I changed the Indian Mountains to a blueish-white color, to resemble the snowier look those mountains would have had in contrast with the rocky-dusty mountains that would exist in Turkey.

I don't understand your logic about the Mediterranean Sea. 1. I don't think anything about the Med. looks silly. It has to wrap around the Island of Krete because the Island was not part of the Empire, nor were its Seas. Same with the Spartan Territory. If I let the seas touch those places that are "off the battlefield", not only would it not make any sense, but it wouldn't look any better anyway.

The reason Antigonus gets a bumped bonus and Ptolomy and Kassander do not is because Kassander and Ptolomy are both very small continents. They will no doubt be snatched up before anyone even has a good chance of conquering Antigonus.
I'll consider raising Kassander to 4, though, but I don't think its neccessary.

I changed around the title a little. I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I don't really think theres much I can do to make it any better.


Other things I changed:

I replaced the head of Alexander with a coin. I'm not sure which I like better, it can easily be replaced with the head again. I was also considering replacing the compass with the coin, and putting the head back. I'm a little partial to that idea because I don't think the compass looks ancient, it looks more 17th century to me.

I also added a shadow of Alexander on his horse up by the title. I originally had the statue itself up there, but I thought the shadow looked cooler, and also was more appropriate (considering this is post-alexander, and anyone playing this map is fighting in his shadow).

I also added the Sun of Makedonia on Makedonia. It's a very famous symbol of Makedonia and is often associated with Alexander (because thats where he was born and where his Kingdom began). I think it looks nice and I doubt it would be at all confusing and I don't think it'll cause any other problems.
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:34 pm

Image

Heres what it looks like without the compass.
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Postby haha on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:42 pm

looks good
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Postby rocksolid on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:45 pm

The Aegean sea looks like it's water but the Mediterranean and Caspian less so - if I didn't know what I was looking at, I might think they were land. Maybe if you made them value variants of the Aegean but not hue or saturation variants - the greenness throws me off.

I think whitish blue or a snowier look would work for the mountains in the east, but right now they just look light purple on my screen.

I think if you go with no compass, you should still only have one head of Alexander, or two identical profiles facing each other. The way it is now with the one profile and the other portrait on the same map looks kinda weird. I think you're right about the apparent age of the compass image, but I didn't think about it at all until you mentioned it. I'd say go with your gut on whether or not to include it - it works with or without.
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:57 pm

Image

I addressed all your suggestions. I think you were right about the mountains, definitely so I made them grayer/whiter.

As for the Seas, i'm not really sure whats better. They both look fine to me, but if people like this way better thats fine by me. I had it the other way first because I thought it would be better to give them a different color to further bring home the point that the Seas aren't their own continent, but the note should take care of that anyway so it's not neccessary.

As for the coins, I tried giving your suggestion a shot. I think having two coins looks a bit goofy personally, and I like the coin/statue combo personally. But if people like this (or any other combination) better, i'll be willing to change it up. I'm gonna need a good majority to convince me, though.
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Postby Mr. K on Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:00 pm

Image

For the record, here's what the statue looks like (in place of the shadow). Personally I really prefer the shadow, and it's gonna take a big majority to convince me to change it.


But since in general i'm getting very few responses about this map, i'm probably just going to go with the art I prefer best. Otherwise i'll just be picking 1 or 2 people's opinions over my own, and what sense does that make?

So yea, unless I get an overwhelming response I'm just going to do it my way (unless you can convince me, which I'm always open to).
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Postby fluffybunnykins on Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:58 pm

note: if you have to login after writing a long post, just click back (after the login) til you get to your text then hit submit, et voila.
I discovered this after a similarly frustrating experience!
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Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:15 am

---I think the statue looked quite a bit better than the coin in it's place. As for the other coin it looks a bit odd, like it was pressed into the earth from one of the ancient gods.

---The horse and rider is interesting, I like the idea but not sure that particular image. What other images have you experimented with? I think you should look into a few and give them all try, before settling down on one (and perhaps same goes for the coin if it is kept).

---And I'm not entirely sure you understood what I meant about the med looking silly, but I think you got the gist of it. I'm simply saying the little wrap around it does to touch all of Cyreneca looks extremely odd. Why not just have it extend to the edge of the map? Because of the neutral territory? I think you should look into making that extend, and perhaps the Caspian sea also. Many places in Kassander as I stated touch the infamous neutral territory, as does Agean, so why not the rest?


--Andy
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Postby reverend_kyle on Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:26 am

i dont like the statue in the in the continent period and i liked the coin and statue like you had first. I also liked the sea colors how they were.
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