Conquer Club

Well lets see...

---Advice...type long posts up in notepad or some similar program, it's all I ever do now with long or important posts.

~~~~~

Anyways, the map is coming along...but I'll comment on a few things.

---Are you going to use the Army shadows?

---Have you considered doing anything with the legend. I'm not sure if it's my eyes or my computer, but sometimes kassander is a little hard to read. Perhaps a simple marble slate? If you do go the route of more decorative items, I'd do the same for the little description on the right of the map. I think some decorative aspect to this map would be nice, and even better if it was something perhaps historically linked, for a background in the legend or something similar.

---Have you experimented with thre mountains and their sizes? It'd be nice not to see a repeated pattern. Also currently, they remind me of delicious cookies.

---I see your reasoning for not having certain border territories touch the land off the battlefield, but really the Med. just looks silly. Places in Kassander touch it, so why can't it and the caspian sea?

---And by your logic for Antigonus, Kassander should be a 4 due to how hard the seas are to hold and same with Ptolomy. The bonus distribution is intresting, no real middle continent of 5-6...

---And maybe look into something elegant for the name, other than simple white text.



--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote:---Are you going to use the Army shadows?

---Have you considered doing anything with the legend. I'm not sure if it's my eyes or my computer, but sometimes kassander is a little hard to read. Perhaps a simple marble slate? If you do go the route of more decorative items, I'd do the same for the little description on the right of the map. I think some decorative aspect to this map would be nice, and even better if it was something perhaps historically linked, for a background in the legend or something similar.

---Have you experimented with thre mountains and their sizes? It'd be nice not to see a repeated pattern. Also currently, they remind me of delicious cookies.

---I see your reasoning for not having certain border territories touch the land off the battlefield, but really the Med. just looks silly. Places in Kassander touch it, so why can't it and the caspian sea?

---And by your logic for Antigonus, Kassander should be a 4 due to how hard the seas are to hold and same with Ptolomy. The bonus distribution is intresting, no real middle continent of 5-6...

---And maybe look into something elegant for the name, other than simple white text.

No army shadows. No room in a lot of the territories, and I think they would ugly up this map anyway. I don't think there will be any readability problem.

I gave the legend a Ancient Papyrus background. I like it.

I changed the Indian Mountains to a blueish-white color, to resemble the snowier look those mountains would have had in contrast with the rocky-dusty mountains that would exist in Turkey.

I don't understand your logic about the Mediterranean Sea. 1. I don't think anything about the Med. looks silly. It has to wrap around the Island of Krete because the Island was not part of the Empire, nor were its Seas. Same with the Spartan Territory. If I let the seas touch those places that are "off the battlefield", not only would it not make any sense, but it wouldn't look any better anyway.

The reason Antigonus gets a bumped bonus and Ptolomy and Kassander do not is because Kassander and Ptolomy are both very small continents. They will no doubt be snatched up before anyone even has a good chance of conquering Antigonus.
I'll consider raising Kassander to 4, though, but I don't think its neccessary.

I changed around the title a little. I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I don't really think theres much I can do to make it any better.


Other things I changed:

I replaced the head of Alexander with a coin. I'm not sure which I like better, it can easily be replaced with the head again. I was also considering replacing the compass with the coin, and putting the head back. I'm a little partial to that idea because I don't think the compass looks ancient, it looks more 17th century to me.

I also added a shadow of Alexander on his horse up by the title. I originally had the statue itself up there, but I thought the shadow looked cooler, and also was more appropriate (considering this is post-alexander, and anyone playing this map is fighting in his shadow).

I also added the Sun of Makedonia on Makedonia. It's a very famous symbol of Makedonia and is often associated with Alexander (because thats where he was born and where his Kingdom began). I think it looks nice and I doubt it would be at all confusing and I don't think it'll cause any other problems.

Heres what it looks like without the compass.

looks good

The Aegean sea looks like it's water but the Mediterranean and Caspian less so - if I didn't know what I was looking at, I might think they were land. Maybe if you made them value variants of the Aegean but not hue or saturation variants - the greenness throws me off.

I think whitish blue or a snowier look would work for the mountains in the east, but right now they just look light purple on my screen.

I think if you go with no compass, you should still only have one head of Alexander, or two identical profiles facing each other. The way it is now with the one profile and the other portrait on the same map looks kinda weird. I think you're right about the apparent age of the compass image, but I didn't think about it at all until you mentioned it. I'd say go with your gut on whether or not to include it - it works with or without.

I addressed all your suggestions. I think you were right about the mountains, definitely so I made them grayer/whiter.

As for the Seas, i'm not really sure whats better. They both look fine to me, but if people like this way better thats fine by me. I had it the other way first because I thought it would be better to give them a different color to further bring home the point that the Seas aren't their own continent, but the note should take care of that anyway so it's not neccessary.

As for the coins, I tried giving your suggestion a shot. I think having two coins looks a bit goofy personally, and I like the coin/statue combo personally. But if people like this (or any other combination) better, i'll be willing to change it up. I'm gonna need a good majority to convince me, though.

For the record, here's what the statue looks like (in place of the shadow). Personally I really prefer the shadow, and it's gonna take a big majority to convince me to change it.


But since in general i'm getting very few responses about this map, i'm probably just going to go with the art I prefer best. Otherwise i'll just be picking 1 or 2 people's opinions over my own, and what sense does that make?

So yea, unless I get an overwhelming response I'm just going to do it my way (unless you can convince me, which I'm always open to).

note: if you have to login after writing a long post, just click back (after the login) til you get to your text then hit submit, et voila.
I discovered this after a similarly frustrating experience!

---I think the statue looked quite a bit better than the coin in it's place. As for the other coin it looks a bit odd, like it was pressed into the earth from one of the ancient gods.

---The horse and rider is interesting, I like the idea but not sure that particular image. What other images have you experimented with? I think you should look into a few and give them all try, before settling down on one (and perhaps same goes for the coin if it is kept).

---And I'm not entirely sure you understood what I meant about the med looking silly, but I think you got the gist of it. I'm simply saying the little wrap around it does to touch all of Cyreneca looks extremely odd. Why not just have it extend to the edge of the map? Because of the neutral territory? I think you should look into making that extend, and perhaps the Caspian sea also. Many places in Kassander as I stated touch the infamous neutral territory, as does Agean, so why not the rest?


--Andy

i dont like the statue in the in the continent period and i liked the coin and statue like you had first. I also liked the sea colors how they were.

I liked the compass and the statue head more than the coin(s), personally, but I guess the two complementary coins aren't bad.

But I do agree with Andy. You don't need to change the Aegean (especially since you wouldn't want that to border Illyria anyway), but it does look kinda silly to have that little wisp of the Mediterranean curling around Cyrenacia while oh-so-carefully avoiding touching the edge of the picture. Why not just let that part of the sea flow off the edge of the map? And, likewise, why not let the Caspian fill the space above it to the edge of the map as well?

Guy, your mountains are really strange... some yellow and some white? Why?

And I believe some bonus could be corrected:
Seculus - 3
Ptolomy - 2
Antigonus - 5, maybe 6 at maximum, 8 is incredibly high.
No continents with great bonus, but 39 countries to 7 continents, huh?

Is that sun in makedonia doing anything?

This only occurred to me now, because it's clear to me that this isn't the idea, but some people might be confused by the fact that Kassander (incidentally, still can't read its name in the legend) and Ptolomy have blue colours as their dominant colours. If they were orange or yellow instead, nobody could possibly think that the Aegean is required for the Kassander bonus because it's a sort of blue, etc., but now somebody might make that mistake - like I said, it seems pretty clear to me, but something to think about to make the map more idiot-proof.

As for the coins, I do think that two non-identical coins looks weird - in general, I think two different head images (e.g. coin/statue or coin/non-identical coin) looks weird. I know you like the coin-statue idea, but for the record I'll throw my vote in for coin or statue solo...

I also prefer the full rider to the rider shadow.

Think the mountains look better.

I have to respectfully disagree with Marvaddin here. I prefer the present bonuses for those three continents, and I think 5 would be absurdly low for Antigonus.

Also, how are you counting only 39 countries? I'm seeing about 42, I think.

He forgot the 3 seas, 39 actual countries, plus the 3 seas.


--Andy

I am probably going to kill myself right about now. I had a huge response... and I got logged out. So more than halfway through re-writing it, I hit the backspace button, but apparently I wasn't in the textbox and I got taken back to the forum. I clicked forward and everything was gone again.... Dear lord, I know I should be more careful but i've had a lot of years forumming and i've never been at a forum that logs you out.............


Here we go again.....3rd times a charm.

The general tone of the last two tries was that some of these complaints are getting repetitive without paying respect to the responses I've given. A lot of them are just a matter of preference. A lot of them I've already responded to. If I have to address every issue that is brought up, people should have the courtesy to address what I have already said about it before bringing up the issue over again.

As far as the waters go, it really is a matter of preference. I know its not as big of a deal as its being made out to be. The places in the Aegean that are touching foreign territories are because not only would it be incredibly difficult for me to give them their own waters, but it would be illogical. Those small places are entirely surrounded by the empire. It wouldn't be logical for them to be able to control the tiny straights and coasts around them when such a massive empire has completely engulfed them.
It really is a matter of preference. Basically, its either looking a little goofy (to some people, personally I think it looks fine) vs. it being illogical (and inaccurate at that). I'm going to pick the second option, its the option I like better, I've given my reasons, I've responded to the reasons against it, and I know its not really a big enough issue that I need to address it over and over again.

As far as the bonuses go, I've responded to this a number of times. You can't tell me that it can only be a maximum of 6. It is a 9 and 9 continent, which can be expanded to 11 and 5. Look at the classic map, Asia is a 12 and 5 and it has a bonus of 7. So at the surface, it should be a 7, not a 5. But it goes a lot further than that, as I've already explained. First off, 9 and 9 is going to be ridiculously hard to control. 11 and 5 makes it a lot easier, but like I've said, it is going to be a really difficult battle if someone from Antigonus is trying to rip away the Aegean AND the Mediterranean from whoever owns Ptolomy and Kassander. If you're going to complain about something I've already addressed, please don't just complain without even saying anything about what I've already said.

I tried a few different Alexander horse statues, and my favorite was the statue of this one. I didn't like any of the other ones. I also looked through many different coins. If I use one coin, its probably going to be the gold one.

Also, I already explained the sun in Macedonia when I first posted it. I also explained the mountains.

*makes sure to copy post before hitting submit*

Okay, well if theres nothing else. I believe i've addressed every concern (major and minor).

No one seemed to really agree on what they liked for the art, so I just went with what I liked best.

And if anyones still having trouble reading Kassander, heres a brighter version..

Final Forge

---The Fight for Alexander's Empire Map has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. I've revived this thread from the pits of the Foundry furnace and have examined the contents. Nearly every major concern has been addressed. If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard. There will be two days for you to post any objections; if no one has posted any protest after two days the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. If after two days there is still discussion going on it may continue until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

Post questions and concerns if any.


--Andy

And to start things off...

---The lighter version is horrendous, I'd stay away from it. I think Kassander is easily read, but you could always look into slightly more readable tones for the legend, while staying true to the continental color.

---Have you considered using different sized mountains, so you don't get the repeated ice cream cone shape? I think it would help add uniqueness to the mountains.

---Also, 'Caria' on the map looks more like 'Cana'.

---And I'm afraid the Makedonian sun might be confusing, but simply in the way more so. That area is heavily congested, and it is really an uneeded addition.

---And I'm concerned about the XML of the map. Can you post an image of where the numbers are going to be, so we can see if Kassander is tightly packed? Also to see how the colors do without the army shadows behind them.


--Andy

Boo army shadows. Join the anti-army shadow revolution.

I don't mind them not being there, I just want to make sure the number values are easily read.


--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote::P I don't mind them not being there, I just want to make sure the number values are easily read.


--Andy

i agree.

Why should Antigonus receive the double of armies of the second higher bonus? I think its pretty ridiculous: 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, >>>>>>>>> 8! In fact, we know its not a continent for the start. A good bonus will increase the fight, but no need to be that high. Did you see a way to get 17 armies defending 2 countries? If you do it by the opposing way, you will get a bonus of 11 only. I still think its not ok, but you of course can mantain it if you want.

And I didnt forget the seas. I was not counting them because they dont belong to any continents.

I'll get started on the XML and post a picture when I can.

How does everyone else feel about the sun. I realize its unneccessary, but personally I think it looks cool, and I don't really think it'll be in the way. But i'm not married to it if you all disagree.