Conquer Club

AndyDufresne wrote:I, like Lewis Morris of New York in the 1776 musical, abstain (courteously).
--Andy

ManBungalow wrote:What's the proposed gameplay change?

DoomYoshi wrote:I agree with N and M both being looked at. We might collectively decide that they are OK as they are, but the discussion should be opened up. With trench warfare especially, an N bonus is nearly impossible to break.

chapcrap wrote:The evidence is in!!

cairnswk wrote:

AndyDufresne wrote:I, like Lewis Morris of New York in the 1776 musical, abstain (courteously).
--Andy

Aw common Andy, you can do better than that now the pressure is off

JBlombier wrote:This isn't evidence. Perhaps I've not looked at it well enough, but the number of territories of some bonuses seem way off. F and P have 2 territories? There are more mistakes, but I'm not gonna bother.
This is no evidence whatsoever.

cairnswk wrote:

edbeard wrote:I liked the solid black you had on version 7. Maybe you just added a glow to version 8, but personally I don't like the look.

edbeard....i removed the white border on the text...but added a 1 px glow at 35% tranparency so that it isn't so obvious....with the new rail lines running through the stations now, the solid black text simply is far too dark and illegible.

V9 is below.

Changes.

* RIB colour changed
* TGV now coloured orange
* TRI now coloured pale green
* Paris colours re-arranged
* LON, HAM & PAR stations all border each other
* Liverpool on the UK now instead of Birmingham
* New bonuses

For onbekende

Here is the breakdown of how I calculated the bonuses

BNX: Bonus 4
4 terr: PAR-BRU-AMS-HAM
2 def: PAR + HAM
9 att: 7 PAR + 2 HAM
9 neigh: 7 PAR + 2 HAM

BLX: Bonus 3
4 terr: MOW-SPG-HSL
2 def: SPG + HSL
2 att: HSL + SPG
2 niegh: HSL + SPG

NRX: Bonus 5
6 terr: PAR-BRU-KLN-BER-KLG-SPG
5 def: PAR + BRU + KLG +BER + SPG
11 att: 7 PAR + 1 BRU +1 FRT->KLN + 1 BER + 1 SPG
9 neigh: 7 PAR + 1 BER + 1 SPG

VLX: Bonus 3
3 terr: WAW-VIL-SPG
1 def: WAW
1 att: WAW
1 neigh: WAW

BRL: Bonus 4
4 terr: LON-EDB-BMH-GLW
1 def: LON
2 att: LON
2 neigh: LON SOX + LON ICE

TRI: Bonus 5
5 terr: NCE-FLN-ROM-CBA-BSI
3 def: NCE + FLN + ROM
3 att: NCE + VEN + ROM
2 neigh: NCE + VEN

ORX: Bonus 7
7 terr: PAR-LUS-VEN-ZGB-BGD-SOF-ISL
5 def: PAR + LUS + VEN + SOF + ISL
13 att: 7 PAR + LUS + FLN + VIE + ATH + BUC + ISL
9 neigh: 7 PAR + BUC + FLN

SOX: Bonus 9
9 terr: LON-PAR-LUS-VIE-BUD-BGD-ATH-SOF-ISL
7 def: LON + PAR + LUS + VIE + SOF + ISL + ATH
14 att: 2 LON + 7 PAR + LUS + VIE + SOF + ISL + ATH
9 neigh: 7 PAR + LON + BUC

VSX: Bonus 6
5 terr: PAR-LUS-VEN-FLN-ROM
5 def : PAR + LUS + VEN + FLN + ROM
13 att: 7 PAR + LUS + VIE + ZGB + NCE + ROM + BSI
8 niegh: 7 PAR + TRI

TGV: Bonus 5
4 terr: PAR-NCE-MRS-IRN
4 def: PAR+NCE+MRS+IRN
10 ATT: 7 PAR + NCE + MRS + IRN
9 neigh: 7PAR + RIB + TRI

RIB: Bonus 3
7 terr: MRS-PTB-IRN-BCA-MDD-LIS-CDZ
2 def: MRS + IRN
2 att: MRS + IRN
1 neigh: TGV

ECX: Bonus 6
7 terr: HAM-BER-PRG-BUD-BUC-SOF-ATH
5 def: HAM + BER + BUD + SOF + ATH
6 att: 2 HAM + BER + BUD + SOF + ATH
6 neigh: 2 HAM + BER + BUD + BUC + ISL

SCR: Bonus 3
7 terr: HSL-STK-MLO-CPN-HAM-OSO-THM
2 def: HAM + HSL
3 att: 2 HAM + HSL
3 neigh: 2 HAM + HSL

TEE: Bonus 7
7 terr: PAR-BRU-KLN-PRG-WAW-MIN-MOW
5 def: PAR + BRU + KLN + WAW + MOW
11 att: 7 PAR + BRU + FRT + WAW + MOW
9 neigh: 7 PAR + MOW + WAW

URK: Bonus 6
6 terr: WAW-LVV-BUD-ODS-KEV-MOW
2 def: BUD + MOW
2 att: BUS + WOW
2 neigh: BUD + MOW

ICE: Bonus 6
6 terr: LON-PAR-KLN-FRT-MUN-LUS
4 def: LON + PAR + KLN + LUS
12 att: 2 LON + 7 APR + LUS + BER + BRU
8 neigh: 7 PAR + LON

PAR: Bonus 9
8 Terr
8 def
11 att: 2 LON + 3 BRU + FRT + 4 LUS
? neigh.

onbekende wrote:BNX: I got Bonus of 3, I find this better for a 4 terr thou 3 terr needing defence continent

BLX: (you noted 4 terr but gave the correct 3, just saying) The bonus for such a continent is nicely, thou I will give you my concerns later on

NRX: We can discuss the bonus either it be 5 or 6, I say 6 even as you only need to defend 5 terr, but who is going to take this in the start? if someone has this he has the game probably!

VLX: (my calc gives bonus of 1, but thats absurd offcourse) See this continent as Oceania, giving it 3 is laughable (really)

BRL: A bonus of 4 is too much once again, this is again an Oceania waiting for a bonus of 2!

TRI: A bonus of 5 is over it, needs to defend 3 spots, and a bonus of 3 is better (note this will be ranted over too later on)

ORX: A bonus of 7 for 5 terr to defend is harsh, again this is a NRX too, so it can be high, I will settle for a 6 or nag with a 7.

SOX: Bonus of 9 for 7 def terr, again a NRX/ORX line, not holdable in early games, althou here I won't argue over the bonus of 9

VSX: (You forgot VIE having a VSX line running to it) A bonus of 6 is fine, althou this is a half NRX/ORX line, but fine

TGV: Bonus of 5 is indeed nice for such a layout, but not for its placing, rant follows at bottom

RIB: Bonus of 3 is nice, however rant at bottom is read!!

ECX: Bonus of 6? ALL FOR IT

SCR: Bonus of 3 is also my calculated bonus, but we have to look at the map, hence rant

TEE: Bonus of 7, I have Bonus of 6, terr to defend is 5 so I say the golden center and 6, althou this is again a NRX/ORx liney

URK: Bonus of 6 for a 2 def line at the edge of map? please don't, I say 3 at best, 4 if you nag

ICE: Bonus of 6, I have 5, terr to def is 4, it seems nice enough, I don't mind the 6




now the rants:
1) Oceanie's:
BRL and VLX are Oceanie's, thus a Bonus of 2!

2) South-West: Holding TGV's Paris station and TGV's paris station, you have those 2 continents in pocket, with even a nice expantion with moving all your army's from NCE-TGV and ramp over TRI to land at FLN-TRI station, thus having to defend 2 territories to have 3 continents, I know what to do ingame
thus please, each of those a Bonus of 2 (with TRI going for 3 if needed) is all it needs down there

3) North-East: Get HAM-SCR and SPG-BLX and you have a 2 continent, 2 def terr bonus, max of 4 shall be nice no?

4) The Great Strat: get South-West and North-East and if your lucky also the Oceanie's, what to do then? set army's on WAW-URK and BUD-URK and your in, you practivally win the game
7 terr to defend, you have 8 continents!!! and there bonuses + exellent staging area's to annoy anyone going for the Orient lines, I say this partially as a rant, partially that if we play together, you know what I am doing




(PS. great thing about this working in the Map Maker forums is seeing all the good strats, now only if the dices and Lady Fortune were with me)

cairnswk wrote:

onbekende wrote:BNX: I got Bonus of 3, I find this better for a 4 terr thou 3 terr needing defence continent

i think 4 is better to counteract for 7 attacks from PAR and 2 from HAM

BLX: (you noted 4 terr but gave the correct 3, just saying) The bonus for such a continent is nicely, thou I will give you my concerns later on

Mmmm OK....the spreadsheet calcs say 3

NRX: We can discuss the bonus either it be 5 or 6, I say 6 even as you only need to defend 5 terr, but who is going to take this in the start? if someone has this he has the game probably!

Maybe then this should be 6 to encourage someone to attempt to hold at start.

VLX: (my calc gives bonus of 1, but thats absurd offcourse) See this continent as Oceania, giving it 3 is laughable (really)

Sorry, my text is wrong, the bonus should be 2 as in the map.

BRL: A bonus of 4 is too much once again, this is again an Oceania waiting for a bonus of 2!

Yes me wrong text again...should be 2.

TRI: A bonus of 5 is over it, needs to defend 3 spots, and a bonus
of 3 is better (note this will be ranted over too later on)

3 is on the map....text wrong again.

ORX: A bonus of 7 for 5 terr to defend is harsh, again this is a NRX too, so it can be high, I will settle for a 6 or nag with a 7.

Map says 7, i am happy with 7.

SOX: Bonus of 9 for 7 def terr, again a NRX/ORX line, not holdable in early games, althou here I won't argue over the bonus of 9

Good

VSX: (You forgot VIE having a VSX line running to it) A bonus of 6
is fine, althou this is a half NRX/ORX line, but fine

Good

TGV: Bonus of 5 is indeed nice for such a layout, but not for its placing, rant follows at bottom

RIB: Bonus of 3 is nice, however rant at bottom is read!!

ECX: Bonus of 6? ALL FOR IT

Good

SCR: Bonus of 3 is also my calculated bonus, but we have to look at the map, hence rant

Understand rant....but you also have to hold HAM against two attackers as well as Helsinki...therefore i still say three. i think 3 is better also because HAM can also be attacked from ECX.

TEE: Bonus of 7, I have Bonus of 6, terr to defend is 5 so I say the golden center and 6, althou this is again a NRX/ORx liney

i think 7 is better for attack from KLN and PAR.

URK: Bonus of 6 for a 2 def line at the edge of map? please don't, I say 3 at best, 4 if you nag

MMMmmmm i think only 2....as you say is at edge of map, and therefore not really strategic to centre game.

ICE: Bonus of 6, I have 5, terr to def is 4, it seems nice enough, I don't mind the 6

Good

now the rants:
1) Oceanie's:
BRL and VLX are Oceanie's, thus a Bonus of 2!

Done on map.

2) South-West: Holding TGV's Paris station and TGV's paris station, you have those 2 continents in pocket, with even a nice expantion with moving all your army's from NCE-TGV and ramp over TRI to land at FLN-TRI station, thus having to defend 2 territories to have 3 continents, I know what to do ingame
thus please, each of those a Bonus of 2 (with TRI going for 3 if needed) is all it needs down there

TRI already 3 on map....i compromise with 3 for TGV and 2 for RIB.

3) North-East: Get HAM-SCR and SPG-BLX and you have a 2 continent, 2 def terr bonus, max of 4 shall be nice no?

4) The Great Strat: get South-West and North-East and if your lucky also the Oceanie's, what to do then? set army's on WAW-URK and BUD-URK and your in, you practivally win the game
7 terr to defend, you have 8 continents!!! and there bonuses + exellent staging area's to annoy anyone going for the Orient lines, I say this partially as a rant, partially that if we play together, you know what I am doing

(PS. great thing about this working in the Map Maker forums is seeing all the good strats, now only if the dices and Lady Fortune were with me)

so this should be V10 bonuses?

BNX 4
BLX 3
NRX 6
VLX 2
BRL 2
TRI 3
ORX 7
SOX 9
VSX 6
TGV 3
RIB 2
ECX 6
SRC 3
TEE 7
URK 2
ICE 6

cairnswk wrote:I have run the bonus calculator again on this and the results are

Click image to enlarge.

nippersean wrote:Cairns,

I have some evidence.

If you change one of my favourite maps, I shall kill you. So there. That is all.

What next, someone got lucky dice off a cannon in Waterloo - maybe they shouldn't bombard?? Crazee talk.

Lots of love, Nipp

I think you should certainly consider putting something up in GD for a wider input on this.

Gilligan wrote:Wow there are many bonuses off...

benga wrote:

nikola_milicki wrote:can somebody plz explain why is M bonus +3? bcuz it has 2 borders and N and A have only 1? kinda makes P +2 with twice as many lands and also 2 borders ridiculous?

LOL was just thinking the same thing, B bonus can be broken much easier and it's also +3

agentcom wrote:

benga wrote:

nikola_milicki wrote:can somebody plz explain why is M bonus +3? bcuz it has 2 borders and N and A have only 1? kinda makes P +2 with twice as many lands and also 2 borders ridiculous?

LOL was just thinking the same thing, B bonus can be broken much easier and it's also +3

Does every bonus have to be equal in this manner? I'm not saying this is the case here, but I would think that there are times when the map maker wants people to concentrate a lot on one area over another.

cairnswk wrote:I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure

koontz1973 wrote:

cairnswk wrote:I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure

And this alone should tell you to leave it alone. A vocal minority will always sound louder than a silent majority. But the silence is deafening about these bonuses.

koontz1973 wrote:Over 9000 games is not a lot. It may not have the balance that the current maps have but so what. Not every map needs to be balanced. If this map needed more work, more people would of posted in the thread over the years asking for it, not just the recent weeks.

Classic is not balanced but I do not see post after post in that thread demanding a change. And that one has had 2699315 games finished on it.