Operation Drug War [Quenched]

[edbeard]

what specifically do you think is too complicated? Since I'm familiar with the map, nothing seems too complicated to me.

I mean, at first it can be a bit daunting (much like DiM's maps to be honest) but after you are more familiar with it, it's not complicated at all.


Basically, what's the most confusing? And, what would you change? Hopefully without altering the gameplay hugely or revamping everything.

[oaktown]

____________drive by_____________

So, I have some concerns about the graphics.

NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK.

Ah. Well, there's so much going on that it may be a bit rules heavy. I foresee starting a game, deciding on an objective, making a couple of turns and then the game ends suddenly because somebody went after an objective that I missed. After that happened twice I'd give up on the map entirely.

It's tough to judge because with the rudimentary stage of the graphics I can't take in who can attack whom, but do what are the odds that somebody will get an initial placement that leads to a fairly easy path to a winning objective?

[edbeard]

There are quite a few rules to read. But, once that is done it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.


If you 'miss' an objective, I don't know what to say. If players take a minute to read what they are and see where they are, they should notice that each side (left, right, top, and bottom) have their own objective. With these 'rules heavy' maps (like DiM's maps (hope he doesn't mind me lumping myself into a category with him!)), you do need to do a bit more reading than other maps, but at the same time once you have done so, it all becomes very simple.


That being said, I agree that all the wording of the instructions could be done quite a bit better. I will be working on making them clearer and simpler. Maybe after one attempt, I can get fresh eyes from the foundry to help with this.


For those concerned about graphics, they are being worked on now. Not by me mind you. I won't say who because I'll let him do that if he so wishes. I don't know when we'll see something (I've already seen a sample), but I wouldn't expect anything soon. And, at the moment gameplay and clear instructions are most important.




At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go. You would need to own the Supply Patrol Car. Because we only have 24 starting territories, no matter what game size you play you get 3 armies. So, to get the objective, you'd need to

1. deploy 3 armies on that patrol car (2 if think you can lose NO rolls and win a 3v3 and a 2v3)
2. conquer the driver and advance.
3. conquer the supplier but do not advance
4. conquer the garage and advance
5. conquer the main stash

if you don't lose ANY rolls you will have 1 army left to fortify how you like. You'd need to win at least one 3 v 3 attempt.

So, if this is an 'issue' I believe that upping the amount of armies on the main stash would be sufficient to counter this. Perhaps also it would be smart to make Driver to Garage a one way border. Once you are in the garage you cannot go back to the driver. The benefit of the supplier is the unique route to the main stash, but the one way route could curb this advantage slightly.

[oaktown]

I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.

My trouble right now is that understanding the map depends largely on reading the legend... A connects with B, C and D connect with E, F-L are connected, M can bombard B & D, J connects with A-I except after C, etc. There's no way I can keep that straight on my first read. Seven attack rules aren't intuitive, and those attack patterns come with exceptions. Hopefully with graphics for the phones, patrol cars, etc it will be easier to follow visually.

Plus, I think some borders are still missing?

[yeti_c]

At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.

It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

C.

[Telvannia]

At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.

It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

C.

I think you mean, if you hold all the objectives, the game redeals, otherwise AoR would not work, as the game would not let you start with a castle...

[mibi]

There are quite a few rules to read. But, once that is done it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.


If you 'miss' an objective, I don't know what to say. If players take a minute to read what they are and see where they are, they should notice that each side (left, right, top, and bottom) have their own objective. With these 'rules heavy' maps (like DiM's maps (hope he doesn't mind me lumping myself into a category with him!)), you do need to do a bit more reading than other maps, but at the same time once you have done so, it all becomes very simple.

The difference between this and DiM's maps is that on AoM, AoR, only the bonuses are confusing and require BOB. The movement is simple and the objectives are clear. With Drug War though, the movement, bonuses and objectives all require consideration from the player. Add it up and you have a trifecta of obfuscation. You can say that a player will have to take a few minutes to read over the legend a few times but you are then selling the map and its popularity short.

Keep in mind the most successful restaurant in Los Angeles is Pink;s Hotdogs.

[yeti_c]

At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.

It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

C.

I think you mean, if you hold all the objectives, the game redeals, otherwise AoR would not work, as the game would not let you start with a castle...

"An Objective" is the whole objective - I didn't say "an objective territory"

C.

[edbeard]

umm most territories are starting neutral guys. It is IMPOSSIBLE to actually start with an objective. Oaktown was worried about the ease of gaining an objective. I was saying that it IS possible to hold that specific objective AFTER your first turn. However, by adding more neutrals to the main stash, that problem would be solved.


I dunno. It's hard for me to see all this stuff as that complicated. As I said, I'll try to get the wording to be more concise. That might help qwell some of your concerns.


There are no borders missing. Maybe you can explain what is confusing you specifically? Actually, perhaps it'd be better to just wait until I update.

One thing that might help would be making the Patrol part of the sector, in that, they are treated like all the other territories. Currently they connect to seemingly non-adjacent territories in their own sector.

[edbeard]

I hope this clears things up a bit


1. Made patrol cars into a normal territory inside the sector. no more rules attached to how they work inside a sector. So, hopefully this is clear from the lame graphics update I made.

2. Made patrol cars only able to attack each other up down left right.

3. Changed the legend to be more readable (hopefully).

[edbeard]

good feedback so far on the latest version.......


Annnyway, I was sending messages with the artist back and forth


There's an obvious spacing issue and with the graphics it also presents a 'hard to get territory borders in' issue.

So, the artist (I won't presume to name him or show his art (although that might spark interest?)), suggested that all territories in the sector border each other. A couple territories would need special rules regarding this, but that's not too pressing at the moment.

I'd honestly prefer the setup as it is currently, but I'm trying to be open to everything and if there are no objections, it seems like a good route to follow.


I guess some issues would be if it would make the games too fast. The muscle territories which had acted as a buffer before are now almost useless in some cases. But, this could be worked around with bonuses to provide incentive.

[yeti_c]

I dislike that I'm afraid - I reckon that would make it too open!

C.

[MrBenn]

Edbeard, I have to admit that this map doesn't grab me and make me want to play...

... Having said that, I've had a hard think about it, and I'm not sure that you should have the Patrol cars as starting points... Most people will be in the corner segments with no direct access to 'objective' territories - and anybody who starts with a Patrol car in the North, South, East or West (particularly the one next to the Driver in the North) has a major advantage towards securing the objective.

On another note, you could perhaps clear up the Patrol Car attack routes by having a picture of a car on the road (next to the Patrol Car territory), with attack lines linking the appropriate cars.

[fumandomuerte]

What about inserting an alley? They always appear on gangstas movies with the dealers runing from the police.

I like the idea, drugs are a real social issue, specially on this side of America (USA-Mexico border).

Go on.

[redorangeyellow]

i live in baltimore, nothin cool about this shit

i live in baltimore too. and you shouldn't really joke around with this

[edbeard]

first of all, we're not joking around with anything. it is a serious subject, and we're not making light of that. But, at the same time it's just a CC map.




here is the map with graphics. Thanks Telvannia!


What you need to know

1. This is an objective map. Four different ones that all include holding the main stash.
2. There are 24 starting territories. Everything starts neutral except the 8 patrol cars, the 4 corner bosses, the 4 runners, the 4 corner junkies, the 4 counters.
That's 4*4 + 8 = 16 + 8 = 24
3. There are 35 other territories that start out as neutral
4. Number of neutrals on those territories has yet to be determined.


To Do:

1. Legend sprucing up.

Ideas: maybe a police type background for it? Red-white-Blue title maybe.

ideas here would be helpful

2. Stick-up man

changing from a Lorry to a pickup truck

3. spare territory

Oops. This should be part of the muscle territory for that area.

4. labels

need to put the labels on the sectors so people can distinguish doubly named territories. EG: SW stash, NE junkie etc..

5. Army circles for specific territories

For the territories that have connections we make unique army circles. It serves as a subliminal reminder of what was said in the legend.

detective - lieutenant each maybe is a badge
attorney - prosecutor each maybe is a square/book shape
garage - driver not sure of a good symbol here. ideas?

[Sir. Ricco]

Maybe the patrol could bombard the junkies. Just a thought.

[edbeard]

Maybe the patrol could bombard the junkies. Just a thought.

well since they are directly connected in the four borders, this isn't possible.



Soooo, I'm trying to think how many neutrals to start on certain territories.

We could just go with the standard 3 on all of them but I don't think that makes sense.

I think we want to encourage going after bonuses so maybe put 2 neutrals on every territory except for any involved in an objective. These could have 4 or 6 and the Main Stash could have 6 or 8.



One thing about the bonuses, I had intended the junkie+stash, counter+runner+stash and Boss+muscle bonuses to ONLY work inside a corner. So, this will be clarified soon.


But, since there are muscle throughout the map, do we want a Muscle bonus? At the moment the only incentive to get them is if you hold the Boss in that corner, or if you hold the Leader or 2nd. Maybe Muscle could have a +4 for 5 bonus or something? Or, a +2 for any 3?

[Coleman]

The questions I'm seeing now are ones I think should be discussed in main foundry. Off you go.

[Unit_2]

Do we really need a "Drug Wars" map?

[Coleman]

Do we really need a "Drug Wars" map?

Well he had enough discussion. *shrugs*

The gameplay is different, and it's a unique theme. I'm sure there are people here (especially outside the foundry) that would like it.

[Kaplowitz]

Unit_2 there's also mibi's prison map which looks awesome.

[edbeard]

Do we really need any of the maps we make here? No. But, we make them to have fun playing a game.


There are no 'Objective Oriented' maps out there. Yes a few maps do have objectives, but honestly I don't think any of them are directing their gameplay towards winning via objective. I think this map does.


thanks for the move, Coleman. Hopefully we get some gameplay discussion going!

[edbeard]

Well, it took me a while to get through all these comments. Sorry it took so long for me to respond.

I've decided to add the What you need to know comment to my post above. In the future, this will go on every update. Additionally, I will edit that post (and possibly the OP of the thread) with any ideas that we are considering and/or implementing that have come from the thread. Maybe even include ideas that we are not considering just so people know. That way people can't complain about not reading the whole thread to see where the map is going.



Anyway, the more I think about it, the more 2 neutrals on all the non-starting territories makes sense. 4 neutrals will go on the 'objective' territories (eg: Judge, Detective) and 6 neutrals will go on the Main Stash.

[oaktown]

I'm in the camp that isn't too crazy about this idea, but I'll suck it up and look at gameplay.

Thanks for the info in the first post, edbeard. I haven't read the entire thread in quite a while, so I'm going off of what's in the initial post.

Right now I'm wondering how you are going to clarify what the bonuses are for. Supply? Vacant? Corner?

I know it wasn't intentional, but the gameplay is very similar to DiM's Mogul map - unpassable streets, connection through phones/subways on corners. Visually, DiM's map has more going for it, so you may want to come up with something to set this one apart.