Holy Roman Empire 1648

[The Neon Peon]

I'm not sure what the exact odds are but someone in one of my games started with a group of cannon right at the start, giving him an advantage. I hope this isn't one of those maps were this happens a lot

Happened once out of the 10 games I have on it in a 6 man, so I would not say that it happens often.

[pamoa]

...Scattered land-bridge between Spanische Niederlande and Vereinigte Niederlande almost makes one think there is a connection. Could be confusing at first to people who haven't played the map.
TINY hole in mountains that block Burgund and Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft. One could argue the two connect. Perhaps fill-in that hole more boldly(maybe bend the Frenche Comte Southern mountain tip downwards?) to eliminate any such assumptions.
Hinterpommern and Vorpommern are very close together and perhaps should be spaced a tiny bit more? Perhaps shave off the NE section on Danemark, scoot Vorpommern North a little. Shift Hinterpommern West a little, and shift the BOAT East a little. Basically rotate evertything clockwise a little...

It is very unpleasant to ear about someone who want to give so many advices after everything is finished but never show up during the work.
My advice is that it is better if you take time reviewing maps during their elaboration process, at least when they are in final forge, or just keep quiet except for major issues.

I'm not sure what the exact odds are but someone in one of my games started with a group of cannon right at the start, giving him an advantage. I hope this isn't one of those maps were this happens a lot

It is very rare but can happen specially with few players and could be more difficult to counter with fog. But again very rare...

[grayhawke]

I have calculated the following table:

Code: Select all

Number of players                      Percentage of games where at least 1 player holds a set
            2                                       100
            3                                        92
            4                                        52
            5                                        21
            6                                         9
            7                                         6
            8                                         5


[iancanton]

although i have severe doubts about the 100% probability, greyhawke (i think it's no more than 20%), the high chance of receiving a +2 bonus from the drop makes 2-player games far too much of a lottery. the easiest quick fix to make fairer starts is to reduce the bonus for each set to +1, but this undervalues sets in the middle and later stages. how about coding the xml so that there is no bonus for holding 1 set, but+2 for each additional set excluding the first (in other words, +0 for 1, +2 for 2, +4 for 3 and so on)?

ian.

[pamoa]

I played two games already and both game one of the player got a bonus on the drop
In game 1 I got a bonus on the drop and in game two my opponent got two bonuses. has anyone else palying this map have this issue.Im just wondering if the gameplay
is a bit off.The cannon seems to give a player too easy of a bonus.Just wondering what everyone thinks.

I'm not sure what the exact odds are but someone in one of my games started with a group of cannon right at the start, giving him an advantage. I hope this isn't one of those maps were this happens a lot

Happened once out of the 10 games I have on it in a 6 man, so I would not say that it happens often.

although i have severe doubts about the 100% probability, greyhawke (i think it's no more than 20%), the high chance of receiving a +2 bonus from the drop makes 2-player games far too much of a lottery. the easiest quick fix to make fairer starts is to reduce the bonus for each set to +1, but this undervalues sets in the middle and later stages. how about coding the xml so that there is no bonus for holding 1 set, but+2 for each additional set excluding the first (in other words, +0 for 1, +2 for 2, +4 for 3 and so on)?

a +2 bonus for a 6 territs region all exposed when you can get +3 for sudeuropa or innerkreis with 5 territs each and only 3 or 4 for exposed ones would make this bonus inoperative. Holding those 6 territs would be impossible. You must also record that it is easy to break those bonuses as they are very exposed. But if you guys think so we can lower it to +1. Should I make a poll?

[iancanton]

we must do something because there are too many unfair starts. however, u’re correct that +1 for holding three exposed territories is too little and this does not solve the problem of rewarding a lucky drop (it just reduces the reward). i prefer +0 for holding 1 set, +2 for 2 sets, +4 for 3 sets and so on. if u want the cannons to play a bigger part while avoiding the unfair starts, then +0 for holding 1 set, +3 for 2 sets, +6 for 3 sets and on is possible; this could be an interesting option because it’s quite easy to capture 2 sets (from the drop, a player is likely to have 3, 4 or 5 territories out of 6), but difficult to hold them – it also encourages people to attack neutral cannons and to play for the objective win.

ian.

[grayhawke]

I have calculated the following table:

Code: Select all

Number of players                      Percentage of games where at least 1 player holds a set
            2                                       100
            3                                        92
            4                                        52
            5                                        21
            6                                         9
            7                                         6
            8                                         5


I have re-examined my calcs and found several flaws - shouldn't do these things in the small hours!
Please ignore this table.

[pamoa]

a +1 for the first should remain as if there are 4 or more players it is very hard even to get the first set and should be rewarded.
what about

+1 first set of three
+3 each following set

that would be a "+1 +4 +7 +10 victory" scale

[grayhawke]

I have produced the following table by simulating 10,000 drops for each number of players:

Code: Select all

Number of players      Percentage of games where at least 1 player holds at least 1 set
            2                                        28
            3                                        39
            4                                        19
            5                                        12
            6                                         9
            7                                         6
            8                                         3


If there is a consensus to change the flat +2 bonus, I would support pamoa's scale of "+1 +4 +7 +10 victory"

[oaktown]

Hey Pamoa, map is looking good. The games I've been in have gone well and i have no major concerns with the map, but the comments you've received have been pretty thoughtful and warrant some consideration before the BETA tag is removed. After all, that's why we have the BETA tag in place - we're testing out the gameplay to see how users respond.

Scattered land-bridge between Spanische Niederlande and Vereinigte Niederlande almost makes one think there is a connection. Could be confusing at first to people who haven't played the map.

I see his point here... the easiest fix would be to have the dotted attack line touch the Vereinigte mainland rather than the islands, because right now the attack route suggests that the islands are part of the territory, and those islands do indeed seemto touch Spanische Nied.

TINY hole in mountains that block Burgund and Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft. One could argue the two connect. Perhaps fill-in that hole more boldly(maybe bend the Frenche Comte Southern mountain tip downwards?) to eliminate any such assumptions.

I don't see what he's talking about here at all.

Hinterpommern and Vorpommern are very close together and perhaps should be spaced a tiny bit more? Perhaps shave off the NE section on Danemark, scoot Vorpommern North a little. Shift Hinterpommern West a little, and shift the BOAT East a little. Basically rotate evertything clockwise a little...

This was my concern going way back, and while it's better now I can still see his concern. Simply moving the location of the Hinter army count coordinate up and to the right a few pixels would help attach the name to that coordinate without requiring a change to the map.

As for the likelihood of scoring a bonus on the drop, well, hmm. If Greyhawke's numbers are correct and a player starts with a bonus in nearly 40% of all games, that does seem a bit high. My suggestion would not be to lower the bonus, because making the cannons +1 would render them far less valuable; instead you could consider one of the following:

• make a third of the cannons neutral starts. You guarantee that nobody will drop a bonus, but you start the game with a bunch of neutral gaps.

• code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

[ZeakCytho]

One minor quibble from me. The first time I played this I completely missed the connection between Venedig and Osmanisches Reich. Is there any way you could make this attack route a bit more obvious?

[oaktown]

One minor quibble from me. The first time I played this I completely missed the connection between Venedig and Osmanisches Reich. Is there any way you could make this attack route a bit more obvious?

Not sure how Pamoa would do that... a dark outer glow on the attack route dots might make them pop out more?

I was thinking the Osmansiches Reich - Polen borer was more problematic... it gets buried under the region title and the legend. Perhaps moving the Polen title and army count down into the center of the map more would draw players' attention to the fact that the region extends south across the map.

[grayhawke]

... If Greyhawke's numbers are correct and a player starts with a bonus in nearly 40% of all games, that does seem a bit high. ....

Unlike my calculated figures, I'm pretty certain the results from my simulated drops program are OK. As a check I've looked at a small sample of finished games for 3,4 and 5 players, with the following results:

Code: Select all

Players     Total Games       Games with bonus from drop
   3              20                        8  (40.0%)
   4              20                        4  (20.0%)
   5              16                        2  (12.5%)


[RjBeals]

Just wanted to say congrats on the quench pamoa. I haven't followed this thread too closely, but this is one of the best looking maps to date on the site. Well done !

[pamoa]

Scattered land-bridge between Spanische Niederlande and Vereinigte Niederlande almost makes one think there is a connection. Could be confusing at first to people who haven't played the map.

I see his point here... the easiest fix would be to have the dotted attack line touch the Vereinigte mainland rather than the islands, because right now the attack route suggests that the islands are part of the territory, and those islands do indeed seemto touch Spanische Nied.

I don't think he was speaking about making a clearer route between Frankreich and Verieinigte Niederlande but creating a new one between the two netherlands. I won't do so but can move the sea route as suggested.

Hinterpommern and Vorpommern are very close together and perhaps should be spaced a tiny bit more? Perhaps shave off the NE section on Danemark, scoot Vorpommern North a little. Shift Hinterpommern West a little, and shift the BOAT East a little. Basically rotate evertything clockwise a little...

This was my concern going way back, and while it's better now I can still see his concern. Simply moving the location of the Hinter army count coordinate up and to the right a few pixels would help attach the name to that coordinate without requiring a change to the map.

I'll change the coordinates

One minor quibble from me. The first time I played this I completely missed the connection between Venedig and Osmanisches Reich. Is there any way you could make this attack route a bit more obvious?

Not sure how Pamoa would do that... a dark outer glow on the attack route dots might make them pop out more?

Missing connections in a map the first game happen on each new map, that part of the learning curve...

I was thinking the Osmansiches Reich - Polen borer was more problematic... it gets buried under the region title and the legend. Perhaps moving the Polen title and army count down into the center of the map more would draw players' attention to the fact that the region extends south across the map.

Same as before and as I explained earlier in this thread armies position do correspond to regional capital Warsaw in this case.

As for the likelihood of scoring a bonus on the drop, well, hmm. If Greyhawke's numbers are correct and a player starts with a bonus in nearly 40% of all games, that does seem a bit high.
...make a third of the cannons neutral starts. You guarantee that nobody will drop a bonus, but you start the game with a bunch of neutral gaps.

For this I'll make a poll
either

+1 first set of three
+3 each following set

that would be a "+1 +4 +7 +10 victory" scale

or

Bavaria (Electors)
Preussen (Prussians)
Spanische Niederlande (Spaniards)
Österreich (Austrians)
Münster (Bishops)

starts neutral

And thanks RjBeals

[oaktown]

I'm cool with all of your comments above in terms of what you want to change, not change.

For this I'll make a poll
either

+1 first set of three
+3 each following set

Bavaria (Electors)
Preussen (Prussians)
Spanische Niederlande (Spaniards)
Österreich (Austrians)
Münster (Bishops)
starts neutral

I voted for neither... I think that coding the cannons as starts is a more interesting option, as doing so wouldn't interrupt any of the current features of this map (which are quite good).

Option 1: I think you had it right with the +2 bonuses for the cannon sets. +2 seems appropriate for the map and for the size of the bonuses, and it's easy to explain in the legend and easy to understand as a player.

Option 2: Right now I believe you have 42 territories; coding five cannons neutral means you are down to 37, which is an awkward start. 37 means a four or six player game will have 6 neutrals to start, a five or seven player game will have 5, and an eight player game will start with 10 neutrals across the board. And you wouldn't even need to code all three cannons in each set - you could code just two in each set and the third would be assigned randomly, maintaining the possibility of a player getting two cannons in one set.

[iancanton]

code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

i like this solution the best (although it's not in the poll), with 1-4-7-10 second.

the option for 5 starting neutrals will make a map of 37 starting territories, which is a very bad number for 2-player games (the most common type) because the first player can reduce the second player's deployment to 3 armies if he wins only one of his territories.

ian.

[grayhawke]

code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

i like this solution the best (although it's not in the poll), with 1-4-7-10 second.

the option for 5 starting neutrals will make a map of 37 starting territories, which is a very bad number for 2-player games (the most common type) because the first player can reduce the second player's deployment to 3 armies if he wins only one of his territories.

ian.

I voted for the bonus change but must agree with iancanton, coding the cannons into start positions seems the better course. I dislike the neutrals idea, and leaving the bonus alone means, I think, that there need be no changes to the two maps, just the xml.

[pamoa]

code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

I'm not against it but can someone show how you code it and i'll add the option to the poll

[pamoa]

Poll result:
How should we adapt the gameplay for reducing the guns bonus advantage in the initial drop?

1/5 - changing GUNS BONUS scale in "+1 +4 +7 +10 victory" that would be +1 first set of three +3 each following set
1/5 - making START NEUTRAL one of each set as following Bavaria, Preussen, Spanische Niederlande, Österreich, Münster
3/5 - code ALL 15 guns into three starting positions; 2 or 3 players game each start with one of each color; 4 or more players the start tags will be ignored

As it seems it is the last option can someone tell how it should be

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
</positions>

or

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
</positions>

or

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... one of each colour of gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... one of each colour of gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... one of each colour of gun territories
   </position>
</positions>

[oaktown]

Alright, here's my understanding of the positions tag...

First, the positions tags will go before the regions in the XML.

Next, I believe the plan was to code ALL of the cannons as start positions, yes? That way in a three player game each player will drop one of each color, and in a two player game you could drop 2. I believe it works like this (and I don't the names of the guns, so bear with me) with three "positions" and five guns in each position, as follows:

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<positions>

   <position>
      <territory>Electors Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Prussians Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Spaniards Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Austrians Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Bishops Gun X</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Electors Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Prussians Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Spaniards Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Austrians Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Bishops Gun Y</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Electors Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Prussians Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Spaniards Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Austrians Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Bishops Gun Z</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

If I'm incorrect, I hope that yeti_c or somebody with a better handle on this can jump in.

[yeti_c]

If the idea is to only affect 2 or 3 player games - then this will work perfectly.

Note that in a 2 player game the third position will be randomly assigned as per normal drop conditions. (i.e. will be added back into the pot of normally assigned territories.)

C.

[pamoa]

I coded it like this, also changed Hinterpommern coordinates and send it to lack

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Sachsen</territory>
      <territory>Preußen</territory>
      <territory>Mailand</territory>
      <territory>Österreich</territory>
      <territory>Trier</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Bavaria</territory>
      <territory>Hinterpommern</territory>
      <territory>Spanische Niederlande</territory>
      <territory>Tirol</territory>
      <territory>Münster</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Böhmen</territory>
      <territory>Brandenburg</territory>
      <territory>Franche Comté</territory>
      <territory>Ungarn</territory>
      <territory>Salzburg</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

entire code

[oaktown]

No comments since the code change? Does this mean folks are happy with the starts?

[pamoa]

No comments since the code change? Does this mean folks are happy with the starts?

It seems so, or they are all gone to play other maps....