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Postby gimil on Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:48 pm

I have a bad feeling about how this will playout with the color blind community. There very little contrats across the map.
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Postby edbeard on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:01 pm

I'm not sure you really solved the major problems you had.


The divisions between borders are still hazy to me.

I still think players are going to be eliminated quite quickly. First turn Reef 3 takes over G1 and Lugger Pintmar. Reef 2 knows that either I can place my armies on the reef and hope not to get killed or I can attack and try to stop him. If you don't take over the Lugger then you're probably dead. On the second turn. But, just sitting there waiting is not a smart strategy either.


Sorry I don't really have any advice for you. I really just don't know how you can make this map work.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:03 pm

gimil wrote:I have a bad feeling about how this will playout with the color blind community. There very little contrats across the map.


As oaktown pointed out on the Rail Europe map, as long as those terts are all idientified adequately, there is no problem from what i can gather. :)
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:07 pm

edbeard wrote:I'm not sure you really solved the major problems you had.


The divisions between borders are still hazy to me.

I still think players are going to be eliminated quite quickly. First turn Reef 3 takes over G1 and Lugger Pintmar. Reef 2 knows that either I can place my armies on the reef and hope not to get killed or I can attack and try to stop him. If you don't take over the Lugger then you're probably dead. On the second turn. But, just sitting there waiting is not a smart strategy either.


Sorry I don't really have any advice for you. I really just don't know how you can make this map work.


Probably :) need to give reef 2 another link the opposite way to lugger isiago.
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Postby Coleman on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:07 pm

edbeard wrote:Sorry I don't really have any advice for you. I really just don't know how you can make this map work.
We can change the starting value of assigned territories now. Enough neutrals between things and the right start value and nobody is going to die before they move.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:18 pm

Coleman wrote:
edbeard wrote:Sorry I don't really have any advice for you. I really just don't know how you can make this map work.
We can change the starting value of assigned territories now. Enough neutrals between things and the right start value and nobody is going to die before they move.


Mmmm I wasn't planning on having too many large neutral terts, certainly nothing over 3.

I've added that extra tert to give Reef 2 starter an extra out in this version 3...please F5.

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Postby edbeard on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:28 pm

well you still have reefs that are really close together

5 and 6

7 and 8

Those could probably kill each other on their first go. Do we want to have a ton of neutrals in between to stop this from happening? Well, that 'solves the problem' but is that any fun? Does it make for a good map?

All of the Luggers connect right? So, any of the reefs that are within 2 territories of the Luggers are in danger as well. Not just the reef2 to reef3 example I used before.


I just can't imagine how this map can work at the moment. Unless you wanted to put a ton of neutrals everywhere. But, I don't think this is fun and I don't think this is what you envisioned.
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Postby Coleman on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:33 pm

3 neutrals and people starting with 10 armies on their territory combats this pretty well doesn't it? 15 has to eat through 13 to kill someone spread over two territories.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:35 pm

edbeard wrote:well you still have reefs that are really close together

5 and 6

7 and 8

Those could probably kill each other on their first go. Do we want to have a ton of neutrals in between to stop this from happening? Well, that 'solves the problem' but is that any fun? Does it make for a good map?

All of the Luggers connect right? So, any of the reefs that are within 2 territories of the Luggers are in danger as well. Not just the reef2 to reef3 example I used before.


I just can't imagine how this map can work at the moment. Unless you wanted to put a ton of neutrals everywhere. But, I don't think this is fun and I don't think this is what you envisioned.
\

No i wanted fast games for this map, that's why they are close together.
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Postby edbeard on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:46 pm

I realize that but we can't have players being eliminated on the first or second round can we?

Right now I think this would happen quite a bit.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:58 pm

edbeard wrote:I realize that but we can't have players being eliminated on the first or second round can we?

Right now I think this would happen quite a bit.


Mmmm...i don't know edbeard. I have done this analysis of reef to reef by closest route....

Reef 1 - 2 to nearest lugger, 5 to reef 2.
Reef 2 - 3 to reef 4, 3 to Reef 3
Reef 3 - 3 to Reef 4, 4 to Reef 2
Reef 4 - 4 to Reef 3, 3 to Reef 2, 3 to Reef 7, 3 to Reef 6.
Reef 5 - 3 to Reef 6, 4 to Reef 4
Reef 6 - 3 to Reef 5, 5 to Reef 7
Reef 7 - 4 to reef 4, 3 to Reef 8
Reef 8, 3 to Reef 7

I think there is a good even spread there, with some routes taking via bonuses, armies are not going to disappear in the first or second round unless someone gets very bad dice and wastes all their armies in one go, and that can happen at any time as you know. :)
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Postby edbeard on Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:06 pm

yes but there's also the Luggers. Those within 2 territories of the luggers are also in danger.

Many of the reefs start within 2 of a lugger. Like I reasoned in my example above, people are going to be eliminated because of going after that lugger.


Furthermore, I start with 3 on my lugger. 3 + 3 (for standard territory bonus)+3 (for my reef). I think 9 armies can do away with 3 territories quite easily. Four territories isn't out of the question either.


It just seems like it'll be a map where luck is more involved than strategy. But, I think we both know my position by now so I'll let other people do some discussing.
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Postby cairnswk on Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:18 pm

edbeard wrote:yes but there's also the Luggers. Those within 2 territories of the luggers are also in danger.

Many of the reefs start within 2 of a lugger. Like I reasoned in my example above, people are going to be eliminated because of going after that lugger.


Furthermore, I start with 3 on my lugger. 3 + 3 (for standard territory bonus)+3 (for my reef). I think 9 armies can do away with 3 territories quite easily. Four territories isn't out of the question either.


It just seems like it'll be a map where luck is more involved than strategy. But, I think we both know my position by now so I'll let other people do some discussing.


ok.....i AM hearing you...but I agree let's see what some others have to say. :)
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Postby cairnswk on Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:25 pm

This maps needs some gameplay discussion on the ability to have a 2 player game end quickly.
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Postby cairnswk on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:22 pm

Does anyone want to give me heads up on this question?

Statement: I want to work this so that each player loses an army per round until they have secured a water source.
When they have secured the water source (of which there will be 8) the bonus of the dive start position and the water will be enough to compensate for that lose (should because of the xml, it has to continue occuring for the duration of the game)

Question. is this possible with the xml.
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Postby DiM on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:38 pm

cairnswk wrote:Does anyone want to give me heads up on this question?

Statement: I want to work this so that each player loses an army per round until they have secured a water source.
When they have secured the water source (of which there will be 8) the bonus of the dive start position and the water will be enough to compensate for that lose (should because of the xml, it has to continue occuring for the duration of the game)

Question. is this possible with the xml.


i'm not sure i understand what you want but here's what i think it should be like.

each person starts with a snorkel and everything else is neutral.

since the snorkel is worth 3 you can't give the player a -1 until the water is taken. but you can do this: make the snorkel worth -1 and make snorkel+water=+4. this way when the guy starts he has a -1 when he takes the water he has 4-1=3.

but if each person starts with a snorkel then the gameplay is very screwed especially in an assassin game. for example reef 6 is 1 terit away from reef 4 and reef 7. so in theory with good dice he can kill either of them in round 1 and win the game.
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Postby cairnswk on Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:46 am

DiM wrote:
i'm not sure i understand what you want but here's what i think it should be like.


each person starts with a snorkel and everything else is neutral.
correct, and yes bonuses can change.

since the snorkel is worth 3 you can't give the player a -1 until the water is taken. but you can do this: make the snorkel worth -1 and make snorkel+water=+4. this way when the guy starts he has a -1 when he takes the water he has 4-1=3.

OK in understand that, but where do the armies come from to take the water. one would have to start with 6 armies or more to get to a water sources, and if you fail then you're up shits creek.
Surely if someone can't get the water in the first round, then this idea is defunct. Some water sources are well away from the snorkel.
neutrals in line to water sources would have to be 1 or 2.

So is it possible to start with 6 armies or more for each player.

but if each person starts with a snorkel then the gameplay is very screwed especially in an assassin game. for example reef 6 is 1 terit away from reef 4 and reef 7. so in theory with good dice he can kill either of them in round 1 and win the game.

no reef 6 is 3 or 4 terts away from reef 4. and reef 6 is 5 terts away from reef 7. the reefs are impassables.
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Postby Tieryn on Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:42 am

Just from a quick glance, in the first paragraph, shouldn't that be "treasures" not "natural trasures as you can for botanists"
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Postby cairnswk on Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:39 pm

Tieryn wrote:Just from a quick glance, in the first paragraph, shouldn't that be "treasures" not "natural trasures as you can for botanists"


Fixed, thanks Tieryn.

VErsion 4 below....

Added another tert near Reef 6 around Isabela
Added more reef to ensure Reef 6 is hard to escape from
Changed the snorkel bonus to -1.


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Postby Coleman on Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:03 pm

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Postby cairnswk on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:07 am

Coleman wrote:Image


Whoohoo! Thanks Coleman

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Postby cairnswk on Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:58 pm

Version 5

This adds a realistic image of an underwater ledge behind the legend to give appearance of the whole map being underwater cells.

Good, bad, indifferent....and thoughts?

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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:43 pm

Hm, well lets see...

I like the idea behind this map. It's unique...something I never expected to see.

The colors in this map are intense, as most of your maps are. I like it. Though it may be a little too bright and green in the top right corner.

The new legend background looks like it clashes with the brightness in the rest of the map. I also liked the seperation of the legend from the game board...with the new version it is difficult to determine that. I'm not sure I prefer the older legend, but it seemed closer to fitting I think.

For the most part I like the images you have on the map, except for perhaps the sailboat image. It seems a little out of place...at least those on the right side of the map (the ones that seem to have more white).

Lastly, in the text in the upper left hand corner, it may be more proper to say "...natural treasures as you can for naturalists to record." ...as the term botanist just refers to plants, while naturalist refers to both plants and animals. :)


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Postby cairnswk on Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:13 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Hm, well lets see...

I like the idea behind this map. It's unique...something I never expected to see.
Wow, thanks Andy. :)

The colors in this map are intense, as most of your maps are. I like it. Though it may be a little too bright and green in the top right corner.

Yes still working on the top right corner to reduce the green....and find more appropriate tones for the underwater appearance.

The new legend background looks like it clashes with the brightness in the rest of the map. I also liked the seperation of the legend from the game board...with the new version it is difficult to determine that. I'm not sure I prefer the older legend, but it seemed closer to fitting I think.

Yes i think the background fits, but i will continue to develop this and see what happens with the legend, but i do like the idea of the rock ledge.

For the most part I like the images you have on the map, except for perhaps the sailboat image. It seems a little out of place...at least those on the right side of the map (the ones that seem to have more white).

Uh huh...will fix.

Lastly, in the text in the upper left hand corner, it may be more proper to say "...natural treasures as you can for naturalists to record." ...as the term botanist just refers to plants, while naturalist refers to both plants and animals. :)
--Andy

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Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:22 am

Is the info in the first post correct about the current thinking about starting positions / neutrals?

I hope not, as it basically becomes AoM:might with the castles able to attack each other directly - most definitely not a good thing.
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