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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby laci_mae on Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:50 pm

Hi Tac,

I'm really impressed with how this map has moved along. It's definitely an interesting idea.

I have some suggestions that I hope might help.

* Enlarge the title and logo to make them easier to read, more noticeable, and take up more space
* You could go back to the Conquer Club University map (or even thread) to see what the trade-offs were to get the names in the rooms. I see many graphic similarities between these maps, and it might help to consider what the makers did. For example, have you tried this on a 90 degree rotation?
* The white territory names are still hard to read. Possibly a dark color would be better.

Best,
LMR
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby Sir. Ricco on Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:44 pm

Even though it looks a lot like CCU, I think you can pull it off. I like RjBeals graphic idea and I differently think you should go on that track.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby Kaplowitz on Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:08 pm

Agree with most of the above. I think it would be a HUGE improvement if you would just tone done the grass. The text would be easier to read too.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:29 pm

Thanks for all the positive comments guys. For a bit there I felt like general interest was waning and I'd have to abandon the map due to being too much of a CCU clone (which it isn't intended to be, but is in a way). Not going to quote anybody in particular, but I'll fully explain what I'm intending to do in Version 8 (whenever I have time to get it done, I am SWAMPED in homework this week).

De-noise the grass: I've already got the new texture, it is MUCH easier on the eyes, MUCH easier to read past, whole nine yards. You'll be amazed on how much of a difference the grass alone has made on map understandability.

Make the text readable: Right now I'm fitting the text as best I can inside the buildings, aiming for 2 point type with no effects (an entire point lower from the current map). If the text doesn't fit or doesn't leave space to put army numbers (I am completely and totally ditching any squares, circles, boxes, I will make my map that readable), I'm making the building bigger in that section.

Enlarge the buildings/make the Parade Deck smaller: This will be a tough one, and fully contingent on how the previous step turns out. If the previous one is word-uber-good-looking by the most nitpicky standard, this one won't happen. In general, I'll do a 4-direction linear squeeze on the Deck, with the left building section biting into the left part of the Deck, the top buildings down, etc. I would prefer to avoid this purely because of the time it would require to get a version out that looks good still.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby gimil on Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:32 am

Im going to wait till your next update before I make an stamp decisions and what not on this map.
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby TaCktiX on Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:32 am

Understood, thanks for the advance consideration.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:58 pm

I'm working hard on Version 8 (survived this week, somehow!), and I wanted to show a portion of the campus after I've put the resizing brush to it. If you have ANY readability issues with this picture, go see your optometrist, you need glasses.

Image

I'm not sure when I'll finish Version 8, but expect it by midweek at the absolute latest.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby RjBeals on Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:51 pm

That looks way better TaC. I hate to say it though but the font still looks a tad blurry to me in spots. Maybe try a pixel font? or maybe try to increase the size by a fraction, like 7.1 or 7.2?

If you still can't get it better, it will do as is. I would like to see it on a whole map. And your grass looks 100% better.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:57 pm

That's actually 2.5 point type. Due to the atypically small size, PhotoShop renders it differently almost at random. I'll try to move it around to remove any possible blurring, but where it does blur it doesn't make that adverse an effect on readability.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:30 pm

i'm not sure what to make of this map. at first i thought interesting idea but now i'm not too sure. its just a school and we already have one of those. anyway:

- as i will never visit the school (like 99% of this site) the layout accuracy just doesn't sell it. resize things if necessary for improved gameplay.
- i find the battalion buildings cramped with 9 terts in each one. why so many ? why not 5 ?
- i don't like the grass but i read you have a new version of it coming, hurry up with that.
- i find all those dotted lines clutter the map, do you really need dotted lines between adjoining buildings ? for every other map on this site terts alongside each other automatically attack one another. we are only told if they can't. for instance why are the lines from Bond Hall into Duckett Hall, President's Office & School of Business necessary ?
- i also find the way some of those dotted lines meander their way to the Parade Deck annoying. can they be given an as the crow flies route ?
- are you going to make the Parade Deck smaller so you can put the street names back on the map ?
- i like in Madness how the footpath connects all areas. this map looks ideal for the same thing to be applied here & it would get rid of all those dotted lines.

did i mention hurry up with the new map version.
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:43 pm

greenoaks wrote:i'm not sure what to make of this map. at first i thought interesting idea but now i'm not too sure. its just a school and we already have one of those. anyway:

- as i will never visit the school (like 99% of this site) the layout accuracy just doesn't sell it. resize things if necessary for improved gameplay.


In process, look at the preview further up.
greenoaks wrote:- i find the battalion buildings cramped with 9 terts in each one. why so many ? why not 5 ?


There aren't nine territories per battalion. That's a map ambiguity that is being fixed in Version 8.
greenoaks wrote:- i don't like the grass but i read you have a new version of it coming, hurry up with that.


Version 8 fix, see preview above.
greenoaks wrote:- i find all those dotted lines clutter the map, do you really need dotted lines between adjoining buildings ? for every other map on this site terts alongside each other automatically attack one another. we are only told if they can't. for instance why are the lines from Bond Hall into Duckett Hall, President's Office & School of Business necessary ?


Version 8 fix, see preview above.
greenoaks wrote:- i also find the way some of those dotted lines meander their way to the Parade Deck annoying. can they be given an as the crow flies route ?


Remnant of when continent names were all on the map. I'm going to be redoing attack routes in Version 8 so they look better.
- are you going to make the Parade Deck smaller so you can put the street names back on the map ?
greenoaks wrote:- i like in Madness how the footpath connects all areas. this map looks ideal for the same thing to be applied here & it would get rid of all those dotted lines.


I WILL be using the sidewalks to show parade deck/building connections in Version 8, and it'll be much more subtle. The way the map is with it representing the look of campus, I can't cut out footpaths where there aren't borders, but I'll take a look at it and see. Most likely I won't need to do much except clarify that you can't go from, say, Daniel Library all the way down to Mark Clark Hall without hitting Summerall Chapel first.

greenoaks wrote:did i mention hurry up with the new map version.


I'm essentially revamping the look of 90% of the map, it takes a while. ;)
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Re: The Citadel Map V7 (Pg1+6) No Chess Now

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:11 pm

Version 8 (Yes, this is it, I finally am releasing it!)

Updates:
- De-noised the grass
- Resized every building to fit text in comfortably
- Repainted most borders so they are more clear
- Recolored every building to pixel clarity
- Cleaned up the bonuses
- Removed flags and all references to them as the new design makes them redundant
- Remade the attack lines to take advantage of the sidewalks already present
- Changed the background grass and sidewalk as necessary to accommodate the new building sizes
- Added army numbers where I intend them to be, in the colors most likely to conflict (but they don't)
- Changed font from Arial to Century Gothic
- Edited the bonus text to be full-length, and added a glow to make them visible

Image

Discussion Points (I think the map speaks for itself, but hey, it's tradition):
- You know you want to say it, does the map look good now?
- Is EVERYTHING readable?
- Like the crosswalk attack lines?
- Can I have Idea Passed now, cuz that took something close to 20 hours?
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby laci_mae on Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:19 am

Hi Tack,

So I'm the first to post on V8. That means 2 things: 1) I need to get a life, and 2)this version F***ing Rocks!

Things I love
* The new arrangement of the buildings. Much easier to tell what is what.
* The new font
* Better color for grass

Things to improve
* I'm not wild about the legend font. It's wee bit stressful for my eyes.

Food for thought
* A prior comment (from someone else) pointed out that the parade deck has the most room and only 1 territory. Just to play devil's advocate, I putting forth an extension of this comment.
--Possibly you might add intermediary territories between the buildings and the parade deck. I am thinking something similar to the center circle of Chinese checkers except keeping the power position in the middle.
Benefit: easier to tell which territories may be bombarded by tower
Disadvantage: takes away from the visual impact of the parade deck.

Did I mention that I think you made a huge leap forward with this version? :D

Best,
LMR
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby InkL0sed on Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:30 am

Wow... I know I haven't really commented in this thread, but I have been peeking in, and this version is a huge improvement. My god, I may start looking forward to playing this map! :)
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:08 am

i got the 9 terts thing from the first page, i couldn't find anywhere stating it had changed.

The 5 very square outlines are the Battalions. Except for 2nd, the big one, each will have 9 territories (2nd has 10), with 4 entrance points per Battalion.


- i have always thought a beautiful lawn makes a world of difference and this map is no exception. love the grass.
- i have difficulty reading the legend, particularly the 4th battalion. does it need to have a grass background.
- i don't understand the building names. now i realise they are probably the real names but LeTellier Hall conveys nothing to me. neither does Mark Clark Hall, Thompson Hall, Grimsley Hall, ROTC, Capers Hall, Byrd Hall, Ducket Hall & Bond Hall. what are the purposes of those buildings ? keeping those names is sure to impress those who have attended that academy while leaving the rest of us in the dark.
- what is Disrepair & Papa about as their names don't seem to flow like the other battalions ?
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:45 am

greenoaks wrote:i got the 9 terts thing from the first page, i couldn't find anywhere stating it had changed.

The 5 very square outlines are the Battalions. Except for 2nd, the big one, each will have 9 territories (2nd has 10), with 4 entrance points per Battalion.


Chyeah, that changed when I found out that sticking 9 territories in that small a space was ridiculous. Original post is heavily heavily out of date.
- i have always thought a beautiful lawn makes a world of difference and this map is no exception. love the grass.


Thank you much, the beauty of lower-noise grass.
- i have difficulty reading the legend, particularly the 4th battalion. does it need to have a grass background.


If you have any suggestions for what other background to give it, I'm all ears. I forgot to change the bonuses to the new font, and likely didn't make the glow around them more prominent. Small oversight... :roll:
- i don't understand the building names. now i realise they are probably the real names but LeTellier Hall conveys nothing to me. neither does Mark Clark Hall, Thompson Hall, Grimsley Hall, ROTC, Capers Hall, Byrd Hall, Ducket Hall & Bond Hall. what are the purposes of those buildings ? keeping those names is sure to impress those who have attended that academy while leaving the rest of us in the dark.


Each one is named after someone who has contributed a lot to the school, whether by being a president (Grimsley), a well-respected teacher (LeTellier), or a great donor (Daniel). Now in order, Mark Clark Hall is the "student life" building (as close as a military college gets to one), Thompson the Math building, Grimsley the Electrical Engineering and Physics building, ROTC really is where all the ROTC classes are taught on campus (The Citadel offers all 4 branches), Capers Hall houses nearly all Liberal Arts degrees on campus (Modern Languages, Political Science, Criminal Justice, aforementioned English, Psychology, etc.), Byrd Hall is Chemistry, Duckett hall is Biology, and Bond Hall is the administration building. Now that I've explicated all of that, see any similarities to a thing called CCU? Keeping the building names may mean that a non-attendee wouldn't be able to tell what building houses what at first, but if I change to generics, that line of difference I'm trying to cultivate between my map and CCU will get much thinner. Also if I change the names, I've lost the character that comprises the map. If I'm going to model a real-life campus, it's better to name it after its real-life things instead of generic phrases that have no theme to them at all than College.

- what is Disrepair & Papa about as their names don't seem to flow like the other battalions ?[/quote]

Disrepair is an injoke. That battalion has been condemned for a few years now, and a lot of it is in horrible shape, so much so that the administration is sinking $2 million into renovating it. The bizarre border is another nod to that. I'd like to leave a few easter eggs for my friends to find, and there's nothing better to name it as there are no other companies in that battalion. Papa is another company, see the military phonetic alphabet to confirm that. Battery itself is a shortening of Palmetto Battery, our company that handles all ceremonial artillery fire.

Thanks for the positive feedback guys, I put a LOT of work into Version 8, and I'm glad it paid off.
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby bryguy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:30 am

looks alot better =D>

some things tho

1) the bonuses are all good 'cept u can read avenue of remembrance and 4th battalion without great difficulty
2) Love the look of the building by The Trailers, but can u get there from disrepair and oscar/novem?
3) I like the look of most of the stars, but i dont like how u... how do i put it... deformed some of them.
4) Why is the shool of english building straight then slanted?
5) i noticed u gave all the buildings noticable shadows except for the tower building

thats all i can see, hope it helps :)
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby RjBeals on Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:22 am

TaCktiX wrote:Image


First of all nice update Tac. =D>

Way better map here, and I'm sure this will be an advanced idea now, and possibly even Foundry proper! You've taken all of our feedback so far and totally improved your map from it.

bryguy wrote:1) the bonuses are all good 'cept u can read avenue of remembrance and 4th battalion without great difficulty
3) I like the look of most of the stars, but i dont like how u... how do i put it... deformed some of them.
4) Why is the school of English building straight then slanted?


Couple of things - the legend needs to be more readable. I also don't care for the the cross-walks that lead everything to the Parade deck. The slant on them makes it look a little strange. And the school of English needs to be straight. I guess the building really is slanted in real life, but it really looks out of place on the map.
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:51 am

bryguy wrote:looks alot better =D>

some things tho

1) the bonuses are all good 'cept u can read avenue of remembrance and 4th battalion without great difficulty


Oopsies on failing to fix the bonuses, it will be fixed.

2) Love the look of the building by The Trailers, but can u get there from disrepair and oscar/novem?


Thanks for pointing out the unclear borders. I'll make them longer and thus, more visible.

3) I like the look of most of the stars, but i dont like how u... how do i put it... deformed some of them.


'Twas necessary to make the text fit. I told you screw satellite accurate. ;)
4) Why is the shool of english building straight then slanted?


Capers Hall is falling apart, and the building is legitimately that angle in real life. But considering RjBeals' comment on the same, I'll straighten it for the good of the people.

5) i noticed u gave all the buildings noticable shadows except for the tower building


I suppose I should add some shadow to that. *Adds to check list*

thats all i can see, hope it helps :)


Thanks much.

RjBeals wrote:Couple of things - the legend needs to be more readable. I also don't care for the the cross-walks that lead everything to the Parade deck. The slant on them makes it look a little strange. And the school of English needs to be straight. I guess the building really is slanted in real life, but it really looks out of place on the map.


I think I can trim up the actual size of routes out of buildings so slant isn't as necessary, but the Chapel one I'm kinda screwed by the title. I suppose I'll rectangulize it or something nutty. I'll also fix the Capers Hall slant, as prior noted above.

Legend readability will happen.
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby gimil on Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:31 am

Can you give the basic information on the forst page and run through the general rules and ideas stamp criteria to make sure everything is in order. Then ill stamp this one :)
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:06 pm

Basic information was there, just a couple incorrect bonuses. It's buried underneath all the version additions. In fact, I'll stick it at the top immediately after I post this.
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:25 pm

TaCktiX wrote:
greenoaks wrote:- i don't understand the building names. now i realise they are probably the real names but LeTellier Hall conveys nothing to me. neither does Mark Clark Hall, Thompson Hall, Grimsley Hall, ROTC, Capers Hall, Byrd Hall, Ducket Hall & Bond Hall. what are the purposes of those buildings ? keeping those names is sure to impress those who have attended that academy while leaving the rest of us in the dark.


Each one is named after someone who has contributed a lot to the school, whether by being a president (Grimsley), a well-respected teacher (LeTellier), or a great donor (Daniel). Now in order, Mark Clark Hall is the "student life" building (as close as a military college gets to one), Thompson the Math building, Grimsley the Electrical Engineering and Physics building, ROTC really is where all the ROTC classes are taught on campus (The Citadel offers all 4 branches), Capers Hall houses nearly all Liberal Arts degrees on campus (Modern Languages, Political Science, Criminal Justice, aforementioned English, Psychology, etc.), Byrd Hall is Chemistry, Duckett hall is Biology, and Bond Hall is the administration building. Now that I've explicated all of that, see any similarities to a thing called CCU? Keeping the building names may mean that a non-attendee wouldn't be able to tell what building houses what at first, but if I change to generics, that line of difference I'm trying to cultivate between my map and CCU will get much thinner. Also if I change the names, I've lost the character that comprises the map. If I'm going to model a real-life campus, it's better to name it after its real-life things instead of generic phrases that have no theme to them at all than College.

- what is Disrepair & Papa about as their names don't seem to flow like the other battalions ?

Disrepair is an injoke. That battalion has been condemned for a few years now, and a lot of it is in horrible shape, so much so that the administration is sinking $2 million into renovating it. The bizarre border is another nod to that. I'd like to leave a few easter eggs for my friends to find, and there's nothing better to name it as there are no other companies in that battalion. Papa is another company, see the military phonetic alphabet to confirm that. Battery itself is a shortening of Palmetto Battery, our company that handles all ceremonial artillery fire.
i had a feeling the building names would be something like that. i guess that's why i initially liked the concept but have cooled to it now. i feel let down because you say it is a military college but only half the buildings have some military aspect to them and very few have a college aspect to them. your mixing of the names exacerbates that feeling.

for instance you have a hall for the school of english and one for business (college feel there) but then there is Ducket Hall where i learn about what, duckets ???.

at various times you have received posts suggesting you not make this map geographically accurate but engage in some artistic license to improve gameplay. i feel the naming of the buildings is a similar issue. strict adherence to the names attendees call the buildings robs the rest of us of the feel that this is a campus and not just a collection of buildings with no identifiable purpose.

and don't be afraid of CCU comparisons with your better graphics and game mechanics.
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:16 pm

greenoaks wrote:and don't be afraid of CCU comparisons with your better graphics and game mechanics.


I am worried about CCU comparisons. The first few pages of this topic were spammed with comparisons to it. And if I were to simplify the map down to what you're suggesting, I'll end up with frighteningly similar names, like "Biology", "Chemistry", "Physics", and "Mathematics". Ring a bell? Yep, CCU names for the same dang thing. And if I were to go generic with what I can, you'd end up with weirdo amalgamations like "Student Life" being right next to "Summerall Chapel." Named buildings interspersed with generic buildings would jar me far harder than not knowing wtf each building had in it.
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby CatfishJohnson on Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:19 pm

The Unique real names are what sets it apart in one way, why do u have a problem its just a place, like i mean, the provinces of canada, or china dont mean anything to me, that doenst mean it does to others
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Re: The Citadel Map V8 (Pg1+8) MUST SEE

Postby laci_mae on Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:10 pm

greenoaks wrote:for instance you have a hall for the school of english and one for business (college feel there) but then there is Ducket Hall where i learn about what, duckets ???


I also am not familiar with the names of the buildings at the Citadel, so I'm only addressing a small part of your naming concerns. Frequently, university buildings are built without a donor or honoree having been named. Once some money, I mean a worthy individual, comes along the school will have a big naming ceremony. This is likely the case for the buildings above. The School of English will be called just that until, say, Mark Twain's offspring drop some jack to have it named after him. To me, keeping with the official names of the academic buildings is the right way to go. I believe the nicknames come in for the food, sleep, and play related facilities. Just give us a little more detail on why you chose the nicknames for some and official names for others.

****
To address a separate issue: You could move the title and parade deck territory down so that the title would be the focal point of the map. Possibly not down to the middle, but just enough to free up some room to run the sidewalks into the parade deck.

Best,
LMR
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