San Marino [Quenched]

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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:58 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:There should be 3 neutrals on every torri region to avoid players who start first from gaining an unfair advantage


this is my feedback ruben ;)

awesome map by the way


I think the neutrals would be good for the gameplay although they would make the map too small for quads.

However I believe 2 neutrals should be enough.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:41 am

Nice map, Ruben!
I'm gonna do some nitpicking again :) Don't know whether this has been discussed before, I'm sorry if it has.
How did you choose the order of the region names for you legend? Clockwise, I'm guessing?
I was very confused when I first saw it. IMHO, it would be more logical to place them more like their actual location on the map.
A suggestion:

Code: Select all
Acquaviva               Serravalle 

Città di                Borgo Maggiore
San Marino
                        Domagnano
Chiesanuova
                        Faetano
Fiorentino
                        Montegiardino


... or something like it. Hope you get my point :)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:32 am

saaimen wrote:Nice map, Ruben!
I'm gonna do some nitpicking again :) Don't know whether this has been discussed before, I'm sorry if it has.
How did you choose the order of the region names for you legend? Clockwise, I'm guessing?
I was very confused when I first saw it. IMHO, it would be more logical to place them more like their actual location on the map.
A suggestion:

Code: Select all
Acquaviva               Serravalle 

Città di                Borgo Maggiore
San Marino
                        Domagnano
Chiesanuova
                        Faetano
Fiorentino
                        Montegiardino


... or something like it. Hope you get my point :)


Sorry but I'm not doing any of those changes at this stage.

I will try to improve the gameplay though with that neutral option.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:47 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:Sorry but I'm not doing any of those changes at this stage.

I will try to improve the gameplay though with that neutral option.

Why not :-s ?
It's bèta...
Does anyone back up my point, or doesn't it make sense to you guys?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:09 am

The purpose of the Beta Phase is iron out any gameplay glitches (such as occurred on Das Schloss), and to ensure that there are no significant flaws affecting the way games play (missing connections in XML; imbalanced gameplay). It's a failsafe to the foundry process, rather than a time for nitpicking - the nitpicking should come before the map is quenched.

If you get yourself signed up onto the review mailing lists (threads in Not Maps subforum), then you'll be alerted when maps are earlier on in the development process ;-)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:10 am

saaimen wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Sorry but I'm not doing any of those changes at this stage.

I will try to improve the gameplay though with that neutral option.

Why not :-s ?
It's bèta...
Does anyone back up my point, or doesn't it make sense to you guys?


Ben has already answered you on this one.

However on a personal note, even if you would have mentioned this before in the development stage I would not have agreed with you. I prefer the regions to be listed in a clockwise order, as you said earlier. Just because you prefer them in another way it does not mean I would have changed it, this is just a matter of personal taste not an improvement per se.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:38 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:However on a personal note, even if you would have mentioned this before in the development stage I would not have agreed with you. I prefer the regions to be listed in a clockwise order, as you said earlier. Just because you prefer them in another way it does not mean I would have changed it, this is just a matter of personal taste not an improvement per se.

Ok, no problem :) I just wasn't sure whether it was a deliberate choice.
I'm not asking you to change it just for the sake of my opinion. I just thought I'd bring it up and see if anyone feels the same.
MrBenn wrote:The purpose of the Beta Phase is iron out any gameplay glitches (such as occurred on Das Schloss), and to ensure that there are no significant flaws affecting the way games play (missing connections in XML; imbalanced gameplay). It's a failsafe to the foundry process, rather than a time for nitpicking - the nitpicking should come before the map is quenched.

If you get yourself signed up onto the review mailing lists (threads in Not Maps subforum), then you'll be alerted when maps are earlier on in the development process ;-)

Maybe I'll do that :) I know I'm not making myself popular by coming to nitpick on all bèta maps when I haven't been around before that.
It's just that keeping up with the development of all (or most) maps takes a lot more time than bringing up a few issues that catch my eye when the map is in bèta stage. After all, you wouldn't expect everyone to keep up with all of the Foundry, right? I think bèta is the time when people who are not so involved in the Foundry forums can give their opinion and maybe bring up some very important criticisms.
If they're small changes that can make a big difference, why should they not be welcomed when a map is 'already' in bèta?

ADDED:
Just to give you an example, cairnswk did welcome my graphics suggestion for his Ottoman Empire map when it was already bèta'd O:)
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:15 am

Hi again Saaimen.

Don't get me wrong...your post was appreciated. It's just that I don't think that a change is necessary in that particular area. It's just a matter of personal taste.

When someone brought up the gameplay issue while in beta I gave it some thought and decided that it could be an important issue even though no one apart from him commented on it. In fact a change to the gameplay will be implemented to the map to try to improve its balance.

On a side note, it would help to bring these issues up during development and not when a map is finished. It's hard work finishing a map and people don't like to make changes once it's finished.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby yeti_c on Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:50 am

XML Updated and checked to now have all torri territories start as 2 neutral.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/1/19/1707364/San_Marino.xml

C.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:52 am

yeti_c wrote:XML Updated and checked to now have all torri territories start as 2 neutral.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/1/19/1707364/San_Marino.xml

C.


Thanks Yeti.

I will send the updated XML to Lack.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:53 am

Poll Results

Is the gameplay of San Marino balanced as it is?

Yes. Do not change a thing.... 2... 11%
No. There should be 1 neutral on every torri region to avoid players who start first from gaining an unfair advantage... 2... 11%
No. There should be 2 neutrals on every torri region to avoid players who start first from gaining an unfair advantage.... 9... 50%
No. There should be 3 neutrals on every torri region to avoid players who start first from gaining an unfair advantage.... 5... 28%

Total votes : 18
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:30 pm

Ok guys...I'm playing a doubles on it right now and to me it seems more balanced now.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby jwithington on Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:40 pm

I liked it better when it was random--made it so that perhaps one or both players could start with a bonus.

I voted in the poll as such too....

Ruben Cassar wrote:Ok guys...I'm playing a doubles on it right now and to me it seems more balanced now.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:19 am

jwithington wrote:I liked it better when it was random--made it so that perhaps one or both players could start with a bonus.

I voted in the poll as such too....

Ruben Cassar wrote:Ok guys...I'm playing a doubles on it right now and to me it seems more balanced now.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.


Yes but that's what makes it less balanced and is exactly what we wanted to avoid!

It's not fair that whoever starts get a bonus.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby jwithington on Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:31 pm

There are other maps where this can be true--Pearl Harbor being a big example of one--and I think that it's not necessarily that the first player to play always has the advantage, since sometimes, both people get a bonus right off the bat. Most maps can give you horrible drops; that's just how it works.

To me, it was just a part of the map, like learning how to play AoR 2 means... learning how it works.

You were definitely asking for feedback. :) I wanted to be sure that mine was included--because I had a lot of fun on this map playing 1v1 with the old settings, and much less with the new settings.

Ruben Cassar wrote:
jwithington wrote:I liked it better when it was random--made it so that perhaps one or both players could start with a bonus.

I voted in the poll as such too....

Ruben Cassar wrote:Ok guys...I'm playing a doubles on it right now and to me it seems more balanced now.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.


Yes but that's what makes it less balanced and is exactly what we wanted to avoid!

It's not fair that whoever starts get a bonus.
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