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Posted:
Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:36 pmby john1099
Ruben Cassar wrote:john1099 wrote:Whats wrong with the Europe map we have now?
The question is..."what's
NOT wrong with the Europe map we have now?"
Everything is not wrong with the Europe map we have now.
I actually enjoy playing the occasional game on that map, because of the colour scheme, and the pure fact that I can actually see the map half the time.
I see that a lot of new maps are being quenched, when maybe they shouldn't be, just for the sake of having a new map, it's not correct.
I don't want to have 120 mediocre maps, I'd rather have ~45-50 VERY well done maps, in which I can play, and enjoy.
Can someone agree with that?
-John
Posted:
Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:46 pmby edbeard
john1099 wrote:1. Everything is not wrong with the Europe map we have now.
2. I see that a lot of new maps are being quenched, when maybe they shouldn't be, just for the sake of having a new map, it's not correct.
1. Many people have a problem with a lot of the labels for territories. They are not geographically correct in many places. They're not talking about gameplay. So, yes, there IS a lot wrong with the map.
2. If you don't like maps that are coming out, then participate in the foundry process. Maps aren't being quenched "for the sake of having a new map." They're going through the process and being made because people that participate feel they are ready for live play. Please spend more time in the foundry and become familiar with how things work before commenting on how things are being done.
Posted:
Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:47 pmby john1099
edbeard wrote:john1099 wrote:1. Everything is not wrong with the Europe map we have now.
2. I see that a lot of new maps are being quenched, when maybe they shouldn't be, just for the sake of having a new map, it's not correct.
1. Many people have a problem with a lot of the labels for territories. They are not geographically correct in many places. They're not talking about gameplay. So, yes, there IS a lot wrong with the map.
2. If you don't like maps that are coming out, then participate in the foundry process. Maps aren't being quenched "for the sake of having a new map." They're going through the process and being made because people that participate feel they are ready for live play. Please spend more time in the foundry and become familiar with how things work before commenting on how things are being done.
Actually, I'm in here more than you think, I just don't bother to post.
If I actually posted on any forums once and a while, you'd probably see my name a bit more.
A prime example is Conquer Man or whatever it is.
Although the concept is good, the overall look of it is terrible, and unless forced, I wouldn't play it.
Thanks,
-John
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:39 amby AndyDufresne
john1099 wrote: Actually, I'm in here more than you think, I just don't bother to post.
**Looks at his fellow monkey. Scratches his head. Takes out his monkey wrench, but puts it away after a moment. Peels a banana and takes a bite. And then it hits him.**
**In a mechanic voice** Ah, well, there's your problem!
--Andy
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:48 amby Incandenza
Europe, as a map, plays fine. And it's not an ugly map by any stretch of the imagination. Thus, I fail to see the need for a revamp.
If people are taking the geography of CC maps and thinking that it exactly corresponds to actual physical real life geography, then those people are retards. If we start making every map with the idea in mind that some little retard is going to look at a CC map and then get an answer wrong on his test because the map abstracted some region, then why fucking bother making new maps.
This is not a geography class. It's a game. Territories are created for gameplay reasons, not strict geographical reasons. If you want to learn more about real world geography, read a book or consult an atlas. Don't rely on a game map from a website, for crying out loud.
Europe doesn't have any "mistakes". It's a fictional game board, an abstracted version of a specific region of the world. I'm sure the people of Mexico would be bummed to know that they're lumped in with Central America in Classic, and I'm sure the people of southeast asia would very much prefer that they not be called Siam, but I don't see anyone rushing to revamp that map.
I swear, I keep saying this and no one seems to listen. Get over yourselves.
But I'll say it again: GEOGRAPHICAL FIDELITY TAKES A BACK SEAT TO GAMEPLAY.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:26 amby jasnostj
Don't call me a retard. The only retards are people who think it is OK to call half Europe 'Germany' (when it would have been sooo easy to have called it Central Europe). Hitler would have liked that, though he was not a retard. So maybe you are just nazi's.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:50 amby john1099
jasnostj wrote:Don't call me a retard. The only retards are people who think it is OK to call half Europe 'Germany' (when it would have been sooo easy to have called it Central Europe). Hitler would have liked that, though he was not a retard. So maybe you are just nazi's.
Woah woah woah woah.
You sir, just crossed the line.
I definitely believe that, although your intentions are good, the need for a revamp of this map is not needed.
Who cares what one imparticular portion of the map is called? I honestly don't think that it needs to be changed.
I agree full heartedly with the 2nd to last poster, and I don't see any reason why you should call us "nazi's" because our opinions differ from yours.
Does that not make you a nazi? Because it seems as though you are attempting to force your opinions on us.
Please, look upon yourself before you start placing blame.
Thanks,
-John
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:25 amby jasnostj
You didn't read carefully what I wrote. I suggested that you might be nazis, because you seem to agree with Hitler that half Europe belongs to Germany, NOT because you don't agree with me and a number of other Europeans on this forum. Yes, it IS interesting to see that it's not fellow Europeans telling us not to make a big deal out of this, but Northern Americans. Why don't you stick to your own part of the globe instead of calling us retards for criticizing a map that wrongfully depicts the places where we happen to live?
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:33 amby cena-rules
you sir are a liar
jasnostj wrote: So maybe you are just nazi's.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:44 amby jasnostj
cena-rules wrote:you sir are a liar
Who? Me? About what?
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:11 pmby Qwert
When people submitted maps in the early Conquer Club, before I took the reins of the Foundry, all you had to do was basically send a PM to lack with the usual info, and he'd upload it. He didn't spend time critiquing it like we do.
Andy
Yes,but now when Map standard become more high(i hope so)that Lack want to see better map then in begining,and these is a chance that maps with some mistake who dont go in Map Foundry, be fixed.
Incandenza
Europe, as a map, plays fine. And it's not an ugly map by any stretch of the imagination. Thus, I fail to see the need for a revamp.
If people are taking the geography of CC maps and thinking that it exactly corresponds to actual physical real life geography, then those people are retards. If we start making every map with the idea in mind that some little retard is going to look at a CC map and then get an answer wrong on his test because the map abstracted some region, then why fucking bother making new maps.
This is not a geography class. It's a game. Territories are created for gameplay reasons, not strict geographical reasons. If you want to learn more about real world geography, read a book or consult an atlas. Don't rely on a game map from a website, for crying out loud.
Europe doesn't have any "mistakes". It's a fictional game board, an abstracted version of a specific region of the world. I'm sure the people of Mexico would be bummed to know that they're lumped in with Central America in Classic, and I'm sure the people of southeast asia would very much prefer that they not be called Siam, but I don't see anyone rushing to revamp that map.
I swear, I keep saying this and no one seems to listen. Get over yourselves.
But I'll say it again: GEOGRAPHICAL FIDELITY TAKES A BACK SEAT TO GAMEPLAY.
Maybe these whas in begining,but now its very importan that map present what must present,belive me now you can not create map and to say"these country not exist,but never mine these map is only for play".You want to tell me that these map is not present Europe,its only some "Fiction,abstract version of specific region",but i dont see nothing abstract on these map,and if you want to create fiction map,then you mast change all thing.For you aim a retard,also people for Serbia,Slovenia,Bosnia,Macedonia,Montenegro,Chech Republic,Russia,Latvia,Lebanon are retard for you,because when see these map and say"hey these is wrong Europe map,where is mine county" and you will say"You are retard,can you dont see that these is Fiction,Abstract map".
And last,you are not from europe,and you dont care what these map present in these case.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:14 pmby Coleman
We could change names on the map to things like Spain & Portugal or whatever via a touch up, but a complete revamp that contains any sort of layout change is completely out of the question.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:18 pmby AndyDufresne
Agreed with Coleman. Perhaps someone should gather up all the territories they think should have an alternate name.
--Andy
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:21 pmby Qwert
Coleman
Cartography Ass.
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 4220
Posted: 27 Dec 2007 20:14 Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We could change names on the map to things like Spain & Portugal or whatever via a touch up, but a complete revamp that contains any sort of layout change is completely out of the question.
If you remember,these is what i say from begining of these issue,these map more present Europe from !980-1988,and i only want to change some specific names,like Chechoslovakia insted Slovakia-Yugoslavia insted Croatia.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:22 pmby Coleman
Well, get a list together for us and we'll see about getting someone to do it.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:02 pmby Qwert
i find new mistake Israel hold all Jordan,but these can not change without adding new terittory.
These names can change,and playability stay same.
------------------------------------------
Croatia-Yugoslavia 100% correct
Slovakia-Chechoslovakia 100% correst
Belgium-Benelux 100% correct
Estonia-Estonia and Latvia 100% correct
Western Russia-Caucassus 100% correct
as concern of Russian others names you can see what others tell,aim not sure for these.
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:48 pmby jasnostj
OK, here what I think is the complete list, with bonus continents in
bold and territories in
italic, the latter ordered by continent:
Germany = Central Europe
Slovakia = Czechoslovakia
The West = Western Europe
Belgium = Benelux
Mediterranea = Southern Europe
Croatia = Yugoslavia
Sardinia = Corsica & Sardinia
Scandinavia = Northern Europe
Estonia = Latvia & Estonia (or
Baltics, if 2 words don't fit on the map, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltics#Et ... f_the_term)
Saint Petersburg = Karelia
Africa = Northern Africa
The Near East = Middle East
Arabia = Saudi (Arabia)
Israel = (Southern) Levant (includes Jordan, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Levant)
Eastern Turkey = Eastern Anatolia (includes Georgia and Armenia)
Western Russia = European Russia
Moscow = Western Russia
Northwestern Russia = Komi
Western Russia = Caucasus
Posted:
Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:18 pmby Qwert
I forget bonuses names,and you Jasnost are complete right:
Germany = Central Europe
The West = Western Europe
Mediterranea = Southern Europe
Scandinavia = Northern Europe
Africa = Northern Africa
The Near East = Middle East
Western Russia = European Russia
Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:37 amby Incandenza
Please god not more double names for territories. I've railed about it in the british isles revamp thread, and I'll renew my objection here. "Name & Name" territory names are hideous and unnecessary. Pick a name, accept it as an abstraction, and move on.
Plus, for those pushing to rename territories and continents: this map is not intended to reflect real life. Gameplay is not the only consideration that takes precedence over strict geographical fidelity. Graphics, general map cleanliness, and ease of use also are more important to CC than strict geographical fidelity.
Don't read this the wrong way. I support the desire to make maps accurate. But anyone that wants to change a 15-character name to a thirty-character name, or wants to exchange a specific and easily-remembered continent name for a direction-centric (i.e. western/eastern/northern/southern europe) designation, is not acting in the best interests of the broader CC community.
More to the point, if King Abdullah of Jordan emails lack and complains about the fact that Israel and Jordan are commingled in this map, that's one thing. Short of that, what difference does it make? Adding clutter to a map (in terms of hyper specific and inclusive territory names) is NOT an improvement.
Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:43 amby Night Strike
Wow, I agree with Incandenza (not that I ever openly disagree with him).
Aside from the Germany continent, there is nothing wrong with the continent names. It makes the map unique and the continents easily distinguishable.
Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:39 amby Incandenza
qwert wrote:And last,you are not from europe,and you dont care what these map present in these case.
And this is an exceedingly bogus reason to dismiss my opinion. If anything, people from the region that the map depicts should be recused from the discussion, as their national pride may color their opinion about the gameplay of the map. I've seen this with the british isles revamp, where people from the area in question have had an enormous impact on the development of the map. In my opinion, less than half of it has been constructive. Much of the rest has been quibbling over "geographically perfect" names.
If there's ever a map of Los Angeles, and I quibble over the boundaries of the territory and/or continent called "Hollywood", then you can all feel free to take me to task. Otherwise, objectively speaking, strict fidelity to multiple and/or bland geographic names, along with strict fidelity to the perfect borders of countries and/or ethnic groups (especially when it comes to continents) will ruin maps. Period.
If you guys can somehow convince me that "Name & Name" territories improve gameplay or graphics or ease of use, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I consider them a potential, and potentially rampant, blight on CC maps.
And I'm not alone.
Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:58 amby edbeard
jasnostj only proposed TWO 'Name & Name' territory and on one of them even gave another suggestion if the two names could not fit (how dare he)
people from the region having an enormous impact on the development...yes. this is horrible. it makes me wonder how much thought you're really putting into your posts.
you keep mentioning gameplay. there is NO talk about changing gameplay. just about getting the names to be geographically correct. to my knowledge, there has be no talk about changes in actual borders. Even if they were to change some of the borders, they would not be changed in such a way that would affect gameplay.
I don't see why you're making a fuss about correcting geographical errors. If the USA map had California labeled as Los Angeles, Texas as Dallas, or even had Michigan labeled as Montana, some of you would be saying that changes need to be made on that map.
Posted:
Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:09 amby Qwert
Incadenza,its look that you have problem to recognise what is Abstract,fiction maps,and what is real maps, first like people says i dont speak of playability,or gameplay of these map,and yours opinion that these is abstract map is fall in water,because these map have real borders,and only have wrong names(they have some litle terittory mistake,like Jordan)and i agree that is not posible to change gameplay,but change names is possible,and with these gameplay and playability remain same,plus people will be satisfy.
Posted:
Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:43 pmby Qwert
I think that we present all mistake names,when will rewamp start?
Posted:
Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:55 pmby unriggable
qwert wrote:I think that we present all mistake names,when will rewamp start?
We only really need to revamp the names, the graphics are great.