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War of the Triple Alliance

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby pamoa on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:52 am

Spelling:
- shouldn't it be República Argentina rather than the english version?
- why didn't you put the accent on the other names? maybe ask Marvaddin for correction

Graphics:
- maybe you can put the bonus number just after the region name (Rio Grande do Sul +3). So your legend box could be a bit shorter and any player immediately knows each region bonus.

Again great graphics, you're a master. =D>
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:14 pm

oaktown...first time i've looked in on this one...fantastic. Agree with "Master" comment from pamoa. (perhaps i should start learning Photoshop ;) )

couple of points.
1. is there any way you can alter the boldness of the region names i.e. Argentine Republic, or better place them so that they aren't so prominent and blend more into the background
2. i know this is large size, but i'm concerned that the legend might no be so readable when the size is reduced.

i'll look again later, but it looks fantastic. :)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby oaktown on Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:34 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Above suggestions made... region titles lighter, Argetina renamed, bonuses closer to names. And I've sepia toned everything just a bit - the colors were getting to me.

I also put some silly silhouettes in the legend to give color, let me know if you like any or all of those images. The revolvers are actually the right era, but they look too new somehow - probably because the basic shape of a revolver hasn't changed much in the past 150 years.

As for scaling back the size of the map yet again, I personally think we have plenty of 36-44 territory classic maps. So I'd like the keep the size up, but I'm not opposed to losing some of the northern land. I was just thinking that the two things this maps needs are:
1. more impassables that make some of these territories easier to hold, and
2. more territories in the regions that saw action, namely Paraguay, Matto Grosso, Uruguay, and Argentina.

Here's the map shrunk down to 600 pixels for size... the legend, as cairns noted, is indeed a bit squeezed, but it's stil quite readable. I'll be fussing with the sizing of everything.

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby whitestazn88 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:02 am

you could possibly move the whole playing area a little to the left... it wouldn't hurt, especially since all you've got there is a picture and some mountains

that way the legend can be made a tiny bit bigger?
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:43 am

Oak - are these colours OK for Colourblind people? I notice a lot of similar greens next to each other...

I know that you are CB - so I can only assume that they are fine - but just wanted to get your confirmation!!

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby pamoa on Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 am

yeti_c wrote:Oak - are these colours OK for Colourblind people? I notice a lot of similar greens next to each other...

Same color but different tonality are better than different color but same tonality, for a colorblind they could look the same.
That's why it's difficult to understand, as for us different colors are obviously ... different!
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 12 on pg. 5

Postby oaktown on Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:28 pm

pamoa wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Oak - are these colours OK for Colourblind people? I notice a lot of similar greens next to each other...

Same color but different tonality are better than different color but same tonality, for a colorblind they could look the same.
That's why it's difficult to understand, as for us different colors are obviously ... different!

pamoa's right, and these colors work for me... that doesn't mean they work everybody who is colorblind, though.

I'm open to changing the colors around - this began as all shades of green, and when I added the other countries left brazil in green and assigned different colors to the other countries.

Honestly, I'm not really sure where to go with this map right now. There are things I can change in terms of region arrangement to make it more historically accurate, but I'm not sure it will improve play any. What I really think it needs most are more room for the army circles, and additional impassables to give players some borders to hold.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; ver. 13 on pg. 6

Postby pamoa on Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:48 am

about gameplay I would say brazil sud este is way too open, all 5 territ are "under" attack, the same with Uruguay. An other point could be Paraguay now it is 3/4 attackable if you reduce it to 2/4 or 1/4 it would give more proeminence to the center of the historical problem. Move the bridge arrow form igatim to san ignacio and maybe protect asuncion with river.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby oaktown on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:00 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Alright, I think I may be on to something.

For starters, I have re-drawn Paraguay to have only two borders with enemy regions. Technically it still has three borders because the capital can be attack by the river. Note also the one-way attack into Argentina, which is historically accurate.

Next, the river has been brought all the way east almost to the coast - this is the actual course of the river (look it up!) and it makes a lovely boundary to protect the sud este region.

Finally, Goyaz has been redrawn to have only two borders as well, and the mountain range (now not a factor in play, but that's alright) put in the correct spot geographically. Impassable mountains replaced by the river (also geographically accurate). I think this allows for a better start, and makes it a decent +2.

I ran the regions through the spreadsheet and came up with the bonuses noted. I would have gone lower for some the five and six territory regions since they all came out around 5.7-5.8, but I know that my tendency is to low-ball the bonuses... at 52 territories this map is big enough to absorb an extra army here and there. :)

Legend: made the interior space larger and increased the size of the font; edited the text to drop one line; put flur de lys in the legend for color notation, which I think is nice since they were already in the legend graphic.

Oh yeah, broke up Argentina just a bit by putting in the river north of Puelches... if somebody really wants to start down there I thought I'd throw them a bone.

And another thing! Added some more colors by request... fewer greens.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby ZeakCytho on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:14 pm

Could you tweak the colors so Argentina and Gran Chaco aren't so similar?

The Fleurs-de-lys are nice, but...why? This map isn't related to France at all. Is there a more apt symbol you could use?

You've got another border leaking through the mountains, this time in Rio Xingu. And I must ask, what's the point of the mountains there, since they don't act as impassables? Maybe move them over between Rio Xingu and Rio Araguaia and get rid of that river-thing?

Another leaky border/mountain in Sergipe.

Gameplay's looking good to me.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby oaktown on Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:25 am

ZeakCytho wrote:Could you tweak the colors so Argentina and Gran Chaco aren't so similar?

Can do... i never know what looks good to "normal" sighted people!

ZeakCytho wrote:The Fleurs-de-lys are nice, but...why? This map isn't related to France at all. Is there a more apt symbol you could use?

I was prepared for that comment, and you made it faster than I'd expected! The Fleur de lys was, indeed, the symbol of French monarchy, but by the mid 1800s (post French revolution) it was widely used for purely decorative purposes. It is also a symbol of the Spanish monarchy, which would be more in keeping with this map.

ZeakCytho wrote:You've got another border leaking through the mountains, this time in Rio Xingu. And I must ask, what's the point of the mountains there, since they don't act as impassables? Maybe move them over between Rio Xingu and Rio Araguaia and get rid of that river-thing? Another leaky border/mountain in Sergipe.

yep, I move one thing and I forget I have to look at what's under it. easy fix.

ZeakCytho wrote:Gameplay's looking good to me.

thanks. I'm happy with this one right now, but ask me again in a week. #-o
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby pamoa on Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:49 am

Good, just another point about bonus structure. Uruguay have 2 attacking territ from 2 regions for 3 defending and a +2 onthe other hand Gran Chaco have 5 attacking from 3 regions for 3 defending and a +1. I would say it should be the contrary Uruguay +1 and Gran Chaco +2.

I also must say I prefered the previous color concept, brazil green, argentina blue, paraguay yellow and uruguay red. You did have some coherence in the color effect which is lost now. The fact you used different shade to differenciate between them is a style I do really liked, kind of a trademark! 8-)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby iancanton on Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:43 pm

paraguay is so small that it's next to impossible to add more territories to it, even if we wanted to do so. despite losing the war, it turns out that paraguay lost only a minimal amount of territory, which isn't what i expected.

the gameplay changes all make sense. visually, it seems that mata grosso ought to be worth less than argentina, which has 12 territories. perhaps the lack of border territories in argentina brings down its calculated bonus. this visual effect might be magnified by the colour of gran chaco being so close to that of argentina. otherwise, very nice work!

ian. :)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:51 pm

I like the greener colors in brazil, the new ones just don't seem to fit!

Additionally, I think you are right on the bonuses, bumping those smaller ones up that little bit. Pamoa, I think Oaktown mentioned somewhere he wanted the Gran Chaco to remain a low bonus value, since little action went on there...but I could just be making that up.

I'd darken the legend bullets a little bit. Also, the legend boarder almost feels too realistic when you compare it to the rest of the map. But I'm not sure what alterations could, or even should be done. (I'm grand at helping, I know. ;)).

The title is alright, but it feels a little lack luster. But the rest of the decorative items...the army of men, the ship, and even the mountains, look fantastic. :)


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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby gimil on Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:39 pm

I took the executive decision not to read this thread!

But I still have something to say:

1. The army circles would use something a little more creative.

2. The frame on the legends area doesnt fit the feel that the rest of the map has. Can we flatten and wash out the colours a little bit.

I dont have anything major to say apart from the above. I like how this has the same simple and beautiful feel that scotland has. Only this map has a little more beef to it!
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby oaktown on Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:21 pm

thanks for the recent comments all...i've got plenty to work on next week!

I'm away from the home computer until tuesday, so don't be alarmed if you don't feel my presence over the next few days.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby The Viking on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:35 pm

Why is Goyaz, which has 3 territories to defend, 4 in total, a +2 while Paraguay, which has 2 territories to defend, 4 in total, is a +3?
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby ZeakCytho on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:48 pm

The Viking wrote:Why is Goyaz, which has 3 territories to defend, 4 in total, a +2 while Paraguay, which has 2 territories to defend, 4 in total, is a +3?


Paraguay has three territories to defend - the capital can be attacked by Rio de la Plata. This makes the two continents equal in strength, but historically, Paraguay was more important, hence the extra +1. Gameplay wise, however, I'd prefer to see them both be the same, either +2 or +3.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby oaktown on Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:20 am

ZeakCytho wrote:
The Viking wrote:Why is Goyaz, which has 3 territories to defend, 4 in total, a +2 while Paraguay, which has 2 territories to defend, 4 in total, is a +3?


Paraguay has three territories to defend - the capital can be attacked by Rio de la Plata. This makes the two continents equal in strength, but historically, Paraguay was more important, hence the extra +1. Gameplay wise, however, I'd prefer to see them both be the same, either +2 or +3.

And if you're looking at the latest version, Goyaz only has two territories to defend. Perhaps I need to make the river wider to make that more clear?
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby ZeakCytho on Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:21 am

oaktown wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:
The Viking wrote:Why is Goyaz, which has 3 territories to defend, 4 in total, a +2 while Paraguay, which has 2 territories to defend, 4 in total, is a +3?


Paraguay has three territories to defend - the capital can be attacked by Rio de la Plata. This makes the two continents equal in strength, but historically, Paraguay was more important, hence the extra +1. Gameplay wise, however, I'd prefer to see them both be the same, either +2 or +3.

And if you're looking at the latest version, Goyaz only has two territories to defend. Perhaps I need to make the river wider to make that more clear?


Oh, it looks clear to me. I hadn't even looked at the image; I was just going off of what Viking said. In that case, the bonuses as they are now look good.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:27 am

Oaktown, you are looking for extra impassables....would forested areas suit as there are some very heavily wooded regions in the north east?
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby iancanton on Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:33 pm

some possible spelling mistakes to check: matto grosso for mato grosso, diamantina for diamantino, bahia orietnal for bahia oriental, minas novis for minas novas, porto allegre for porto alegre and curtiba for curitiba.

there is a "scotland" look about the mountains. the version of the legend with the firearms reinforced the "scottishness" even more!

the bonuses are well-balanced in both size and location. using cairnswk's spreadsheet, modified to increase the effect of hostile neighbours and decrease the effect of the number of individual territories that can attack the continent: argentina is a bit high, although the lack of internal barriers mentioned above, which makes it difficult to establish a perimeter, might compensate for this; gran chaco is low but, if i recall, this is intentional because it's a desert region; mato grosso, where the conquering route from balsamao is obvious and virtually linear, could do with being lowered to +5.

to reduce the linearity of mato grosso (is matto grosso actually a valid historic spelling, rather than the mistake that i assumed it was?), an idea i have is to rename cuiaba as corumba (a city that was captured during the war) and create a new cuiaba territory bordering lapa, diamantino, corumba (the old cuiaba) and dourados, then cutting a mountain pass from dourados to the new cuiaba. to keep the number of territories at 52, rio tapajos (the river is actually called rio arinos till it flows into para state, where the name changes to tapajos) can be merged into rio xingu and the continent name moved northward for legibility. how does that sound?

ian. :)
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; update pg. 6

Postby oaktown on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:26 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image

So I finally came back to this map - distracted by that 'other' Brazil map. Here's what's going on in this update:
    Redrew the territory borders in Mato Grosso as per iancanton's suggestions - the region does make better sense now, and i hope is a more appropriate +5.
    Went back to various greens in the brazilian regions.
    Replaced the flur du lys in the legend with stars and suns: both uruguay and argentina uses the sun in their flag, as did brazil (pre-1892) and uruguay. Gran chaco is disputed and gets the gun.
    Corrected spelling of a few territories... I may have missed more, so somebody who knows the area check them please.

Coming up with a new idea for the legend border is next on my to-do list... I now think it is too heavy for this map, and others have commented on it as well.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; updates pg. 7

Postby oaktown on Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:20 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image

The above update explains the changes made to gameplay, now I'm fussing around with the graphics. Two things to note:

    1. I've hacked away the parts of the legend box that I just thought were too decorative. I'm happier with this simpler version because it gives needed space to the playing area, isn't as distracting, and it means there's nothing left of the legend border cap I appropriated from an old 19th century map.

    2. Gimil had suggested coming up with something special instead of army circles - if you look to the left side of the map I've made army suns, which would go on uruguay and argentina, and army stars which would go on paraguay and brazil... this is in keeping with the fact that in the mid 1800s the flags of these four nations had either suns or stars on them (and while the flags have changed they still have suns or stars). The Chaco region would remain with just circles. They require more space than the circles, but I think they'll work.
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Re: War of the Triple Alliance; updates pg. 7

Postby ZeakCytho on Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:31 pm

I like the suns/stars, but they look bigger than necessary. I think you could fit 88s in smaller versions of them?
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