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Monsters! - Battle for the Powerstones

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby Dako on Mon May 17, 2010 5:55 am

I like the idea of spells as killer neutrals. Maybe you will want to change LB spell to 2 neutral, instead of 3. That will make it easier to use the spell.

Also, I like the idea of having your wizard for more than just +1 autodeploy. It will mean that you might want to get it back if someone takes it away (should be easy cause shield will be down to 1 as well).

And I like additional icons of spell attacks.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Mon May 17, 2010 9:38 am

Hmm. How about tying the powerstone bonus to the wizard? Keep the autodeploy on the wizards, but replace the "+3 for each powerstone" with "+3 for each pair of powerstone & wizard".

Currently the wizards are of little use. Making the powerstone bonus dependant on wizards would be realistic (you can't use a powerstone unless you're a wizard) and also it would serve to make the wizards more relevant to the gameplay.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Tue May 18, 2010 7:45 pm

natty_dread wrote:Hmm. How about tying the powerstone bonus to the wizard? Keep the autodeploy on the wizards, but replace the "+3 for each powerstone" with "+3 for each pair of powerstone & wizard".

Currently the wizards are of little use. Making the powerstone bonus dependant on wizards would be realistic (you can't use a powerstone unless you're a wizard) and also it would serve to make the wizards more relevant to the gameplay.
Hmm... would you need any 1 wizard to get the full bonus form any powerstone? That way we would say +3 for a powerstone and any wizard so 3 powerstones and 1 wizard is still +9?

I will be on vacation till late sunday after that I plan to look at all of the revisions and ideas one more time before deciding if the map is good as it is or if we need to make any changes.

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Wed May 19, 2010 6:35 am

dolomite13 wrote:Hmm... would you need any 1 wizard to get the full bonus form any powerstone? That way we would say +3 for a powerstone and any wizard so 3 powerstones and 1 wizard is still +9?


Well, I was thinking that you would need as many wizards as powerstones... but then again perhaps your idea is better.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Wed May 26, 2010 12:55 am

So here are the changes that I like for he map. They focus on making lightening bolts easier to use. And focus on making wizards more important.

- Powerstones now require you to hold at least one wizard for the +3 bonus.
- Runebound monsters now require you to hold the corresponding wizard to get the +2 bonus.
- Lightening bolt looses 2 per turn instead of resetting to 3.
- Lightening icons have been added to identify what lighting bolt can bombard.

XML to be updated soon provided the foundry folks think these changes are OK.

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Wed May 26, 2010 7:30 am

I like all the changes.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby TheForgivenOne on Thu May 27, 2010 3:30 am

Just a thing i noticed. According to your map, the spells and shield reset every turn. But in your first post it says they only reset when controlled. Which is correct? :?
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby alster on Thu May 27, 2010 4:22 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Just a thing i noticed. According to your map, the spells and shield reset every turn. But in your first post it says they only reset when controlled. Which is correct? :?


The latter. Same as arm's race (warhead).
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Thu May 27, 2010 4:35 am

There's only one way killer neutrals can be made to reset, and that is at the beginning of the turn of the player who holds it. Any map that has killer neutrals will have them resetting the same way.

In theory, if a killer neutral would change owner every turn - so that it would be in someone else's possession in the beginning of each player's turn - it would never reset.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Thu May 27, 2010 11:44 am

alstergren wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:Just a thing i noticed. According to your map, the spells and shield reset every turn. But in your first post it says they only reset when controlled. Which is correct? :?


The latter. Same as arm's race (warhead).
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Thu May 27, 2010 11:46 am

I almost forgot I think I want to lower runebound monsters to 5 neutral start. I put them at 6 because they were accessible via the powerstones however i don't think 6 really stops you once you have the ability to grab a powerstone. All it does is slow the growth of a wizard by a little bit. Any thoughts on lowering this to 5?

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Thu May 27, 2010 11:55 am

I would either lower the monsters or increase the starting troops on the wizards. Currently you can get a huge lead in the beginning if you get good dice...
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby Dako on Fri May 28, 2010 10:44 am

dolomite13 wrote:So here are the changes that I like for he map. They focus on making lightening bolts easier to use. And focus on making wizards more important.

- Powerstones now require you to hold at least one wizard for the +3 bonus.
- Runebound monsters now require you to hold the corresponding wizard to get the +2 bonus.
- Lightening bolt looses 2 per turn instead of resetting to 3.
- Lightening icons have been added to identify what lighting bolt can bombard.


1. Agree, good improvement
2. Well, it kind of works but now we are facing the problem of 8-neutral shield. Maybe lower it to 6? Because this way the game will progress really slow cause killing and taking wizard is hard. You will not eliminate a player anyway (scattered normal monsters) but the profit of having another wizard is ... +1 and +2 to kill 8 neutral? Not really cool.
3. Ok, but I prefer -1. People don't use it often anyway
4. Awesome!
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby HighlanderAttack on Fri May 28, 2010 10:54 am

I like it just the way it is
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Fri May 28, 2010 3:29 pm

Don't touch the shield neutrals, it's the best feature!
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby Dako on Sat May 29, 2010 7:10 am

natty_dread wrote:Don't touch the shield neutrals, it's the best feature!

The best, but don't you think it is too hard to break? I mean 6 would be nicer than 8. And since we will be taken other monsters bonus - it will be even more harder to take them (with no particular point).
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Sat May 29, 2010 8:04 am

Dako wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Don't touch the shield neutrals, it's the best feature!

The best, but don't you think it is too hard to break? I mean 6 would be nicer than 8. And since we will be taken other monsters bonus - it will be even more harder to take them (with no particular point).


Not at all. I might be a bit biased towards escalating games, but I feel this 8 neutral shield is a great feature especially in escalating games. Where you have to plan your kills more carefully and take the extra 8 in consideration when planning the kill. If it was only 6 it would be less of a factor...

As for other game types (no spoils):
You will still get the bonus from powerstones, so when you manage to take your enemy's powerstone, your own powerstone, and your own wizard/runemonster pair, you'll get at least 11 troop bonus - this will be very much sufficient to break that neutral 8. And later in the game when you have more stones and wizard/monster pairs it will be even easier.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby Dako on Sun May 30, 2010 10:38 am

You don't take in account that outher players might also have monster/wizard pairs and they will help him to retake. For now taking monster means you get a bonus as well as break opponents. Now you just break his bonus and it will take the game longer to finish.

Escalating games ... 6 and 8 is the same for the planning most of the time (you can't kill anyone with low sets on monsters map anyway).
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Sun May 30, 2010 11:09 am

Let's let the mapmaker decide.
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:07 pm

My goal isn't to make the game take much longer but to try and mitigate the effect of a loosing dice early in the game. Right now it feels impossible to come back from a bad dice early in the game. And to be honest a game that lasts an extra turn or two and gives me the ability to come back from bad dice seems preferable.

By making the runebound monsters not worth anything without the corresponding wizard it makes taking powerstones more important and makes denying them more important to players. runebound monsters only become important in conjunction with their wizard and as a connection point. This way your not rewarded just for holding a connection point.

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby MrBenn on Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:44 pm

dolomite13 wrote:My goal isn't to make the game take much longer but to try and mitigate the effect of a loosing dice early in the game. Right now it feels impossible to come back from a bad dice early in the game. And to be honest a game that lasts an extra turn or two and gives me the ability to come back from bad dice seems preferable.

By making the runebound monsters not worth anything without the corresponding wizard it makes taking powerstones more important and makes denying them more important to players. runebound monsters only become important in conjunction with their wizard and as a connection point. This way your not rewarded just for holding a connection point.

=D=

I'll admit to not having had a chance to try this map out yet; but trust the judgement of those discussion the relative merits of change...

When you've made a firm decision about what you want to change, please could you post updated links with a brief summary of any differences ;-)

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:13 am

OK I have made a decision on what I think needs changed to make the map ready for quenching.

The following changes should make it slightly easier to expand out from the wizard, make powerstones slightly harder to take, make using lightening bolts more attractive, and make wizards slightly more important to conquer. And of course the graphic changes should make the map easier to undertsand.

- Powerstones are +3 for each powerstone. They now require you to hold at least one wizard for the +3 bonus.
- Runebound monsters are +2 each. They now require you to hold their corresponding wizard to get the +2 bonus.
- Lightening bolt resets to 3 neutral every turn. They now loose 2 per turn instead.
- Runebound monsters start with 6 neutral. They now start with 5 neutral.
- Powerstones start with 5 neutral. They now start with 6 neutral.

- Unit circles are now more opaque to allow units to more easily be seen on the map.
- Lightening icons have been added to identify what lighting bolt can bombard.
- Other icons have been added to the key to clarify assault/bombard routes.

XML will be updated if the proposed changes are approved.

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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby natty dread on Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:19 am

Go ahead. I think those changes are good.
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Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
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Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:57 am

natty_dread wrote:Go ahead. I think those changes are good.


Working on the XML now ... I am tweaking all of the unit positions and it is taking some time =)

=D=
Where Have I Been? ... Testing a prototype board game that I co-designed called Alien Overrun!
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Re: Monsters! [D,GP,GR,XML,BETA] - Proposed GP/GR Changes (p

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:15 am

Here is the new XML and links to the map images for checking purposes. It has been submitted to the xml check thread and I will post here when it passes.

=D=

Map Maker - http://www.conquerclub.com/mapmaker/index.php
XML - http://www.bigottergames.com/downloads/monsters14.xml (v0_13_21 )
Small - http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/464 ... 590a_o.png (v0_13_21)
Large - http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/464 ... d9aa_o.png (v0_13_21)
Where Have I Been? ... Testing a prototype board game that I co-designed called Alien Overrun!
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Cook dolomite13
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:54 pm
Medals: 35
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2)
General Achievement (2) Map Contribution (4) General Contribution (4)

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