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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby iancanton on Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:50 am

an initially-neutral downtown station means that someone must make a conscious effort to take what is one of the pivotal regions on the board, instead of it being handed over on a plate.

shakeycat wrote:I've seen starts with the 4 territory bonuses owned too. I didn't put starting positions on them, but I'm not so sure what's normal on other maps. Would it ruin the fun to put starting positions, or is it just making things more fair? If anywhere, Burnaby would need them, due to the large bonus.

can we use the opportunity to fix burnaby by adding a burnaby region to each of the start positions because of its +5 bonus? we can happily leave maple meadows as random, since this is equivalent to classic south america in terms of both zone size and bonus.

shakeycat wrote:I don't like making the bonus higher than the territory count, but places like Burnaby would be very difficult to hold, as would any train system.

now that we mention burnaby, this bonus is a bit high. ur spreadsheet did put it at +5, but only because u removed the -1 adjustment that cairnswk had in the original formula! however, if the +5 doesn't make the map unbalanced, then there's no need to upset games in progess by changing it.

ian. :)
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby shakeycat on Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:57 pm

So would I be doing start positions on Burnaby regardless of whether it's a +5 or +4 bonus? I don't mind lowering the bonus. New Westminster often blocks the 6th border anyway, making 4 more reasonable in those cases. Besides, it's not often we get a bonus higher than number of territories held to earn it.

I would probably just put three of the territories on start positions, unless it's normal to have start positions where 1, 2, and 3 all have three territories, while 4 gets only one. At 3 x 3 (and not 3 x 3 and 1 x1), would only mean you couldn't drop with the bonus, which is what we want.
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby elfish_lad on Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:41 am

Okay. I don't understand all the XML stuff (I'm glad you folk do) but I want to say that as this map develops I enjoy it more and more. As I move up into (as I am now) 3v3 and hopefully soon (4v4) I'm confident that this will be one of two maps I will choose. The other is the new England map... which I should talk about in another post I'm sure.

So. All the tweaking and adjusting I'm sure is important but I still believe this map (and that other one that starts with an "E") can, for larges crews and small, end up as premier, top 10 CC maps in the future.

Cheers.

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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:57 pm

There's still a little bit of discussion about starting positions etc... I'll double-check again shortly and see what the fuss is about ;-)
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:13 pm

Right... I'm a little confused now... Which version of the XML is live?

We have neutrals on Downtown Station and New Westminster, right?

The starting positions should be fine as they are, which will ensure that nobody drops the bonus. I think that ender516 summed it up quite well:
ender516 wrote:
shakeycat wrote:Ender, good point. Perhaps I could dummy in Port Moody station or Fraserview Station instead? Or even Downtown itself.

Thanks Fenrir, glad to hear it :) NYC was the first map that I really was blown away by. I thought it was really cool to have the trains. Plus the bonus structure offers a wide range. I'm also a big fan of Charleston, just because it's so PRETTY.

I'm not sure you need any of the stations in the starting positions if Downtown Station is always a neutral, because Expo Line cannot then be dropped, which was the concern. The fact that the none of the train lines can be dropped is a good thing, but incidental, and I don't think the concern for balance usually extends to the point of ensuring no one almost drops a bonus.


Could somebody summarise how things are now, and any proposed amendment (if indeed there is one)... I don't see there being much of a problem at all - and there have been no further complaints about the sizes/values of any bonuses... Once my confusion has ended, we should be good for a final stamping ;-)
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby iancanton on Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:02 am

MrBenn wrote:We have neutrals on Downtown Station and New Westminster, right?

no, we don't. in beta version 2 that is playable just now, new westminster always starts neutral, while downtown station starts neutral if it's not 1v1 (or if it's neither a red nor green start position in 1v1). this means each player in 1v1 sometimes starts with 22 regions and sometimes with 23, which some players find disconcerting, even though it's perfectly acceptable for gameplay stamp purposes.

MrBenn wrote:The starting positions should be fine as they are, which will ensure that nobody drops the bonus.

in 2% of 1v1 games, 3% of 1v1v1 games and 1.5% of 2v2 games, someone will drop the +5 burnaby bonus. no-one would bat an eyelid if the bonus were only +2.

ender516 wrote:I don't think the concern for balance usually extends to the point of ensuring no one almost drops a bonus.

i think everyone agrees with this!

shakeycat wrote:So would I be doing start positions on Burnaby regardless of whether it's a +5 or +4 bonus? I don't mind lowering the bonus. New Westminster often blocks the 6th border anyway, making 4 more reasonable in those cases. Besides, it's not often we get a bonus higher than number of territories held to earn it.

I would probably just put three of the territories on start positions

it's now proposed that both new westminster and downtown station will always start neutral. start positions will apply on burnaby whether it's a +5 or +4 bonus. there will be 3 sets of start positions, each of which has 3 regions. the easiest way to do it is to copy the start position code from beta version 1, then replace each canada line station by a burnaby region. one burnaby region will necessarily be left out of the start positions. 2-player games will then start with each player always having 22 regions, with 23 neutral.

purely as a gameplay note, 22 regions each, instead of 23, favours player 1 slightly more. one way to restore the starts to 23 regions per player is to have 3 sets of 4 regions for the start positions, at the cost of a non-random maple meadows zone. this is not currently under consideration.

ian. :)
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby MrBenn on Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:12 pm

iancanton wrote:
MrBenn wrote:The starting positions should be fine as they are, which will ensure that nobody drops the bonus.

in 2% of 1v1 games, 3% of 1v1v1 games and 1.5% of 2v2 games, someone will drop the +5 burnaby bonus. no-one would bat an eyelid if the bonus were only +2.

Personally I think that anything under 5% is effectively insignificant. The unwritten rule-of-thumb that has been bandied about is 10%... With that in mind I wouldn't suggest that there is a need for any change.

I think this is entirely up to you shakeycat... If you want to swap the Canada Line starting positions for some in Burnaby, then that sounds like a plan which requires minimal effort and should settle the debate that's been rumbling on...

What say you?
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:47 pm

Great map! And I'm not just saying because I won my first game on it. I can't seem to find any flaws in it. Gameplay is nice and refreshing.
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby whitestazn88 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:18 am

i still don't understand why this map is labeled as vancouver 2...
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:45 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:i still don't understand why this map is labeled as vancouver 2...

It's a side-effect of a change to the map graphic (in case people had an old version cached at the time of the update). The 2 will be dropped in due course...

MrBenn wrote:
iancanton wrote:
MrBenn wrote:The starting positions should be fine as they are, which will ensure that nobody drops the bonus.

in 2% of 1v1 games, 3% of 1v1v1 games and 1.5% of 2v2 games, someone will drop the +5 burnaby bonus. no-one would bat an eyelid if the bonus were only +2.

Personally I think that anything under 5% is effectively insignificant. The unwritten rule-of-thumb that has been bandied about is 10%... With that in mind I wouldn't suggest that there is a need for any change.

I think this is entirely up to you shakeycat... If you want to swap the Canada Line starting positions for some in Burnaby, then that sounds like a plan which requires minimal effort and should settle the debate that's been rumbling on...

What say you?
Any word from the mapmaker???
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby shakeycat on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:16 pm

That's funny, I could've sworn I posted a few hours ago.

Burnaby I am more concerned about, so I'll swap it to that one. This work? And I forget, are we keeping the +5 or lowering it to +4?

Code: Select all
<positions>

<position>
<territory>Ambleside</territory>
<territory>Cypress Mountain</territory>
<territory>Edmonds</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory>Dundarave</territory>
<territory>Seymour Mountain</territory>
<territory>Deer Lake</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory>Horseshoe Bay</territory>
<territory>Grouse Mountain</territory>
<territory>Metrotown</territory>
</position>
</positions>
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby JustCallMeStupid on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:40 am

Burnaby is an awesome bonus for the map. I think unrandomizing territories on a map makes it less fun. Burnaby has so many break points that it should be left completely random. Tuning it down to a +4 bonus is probably fair considering each territory protects itself but please dont make the territories default to different players. The random advantage of having 2 of the burnaby territories adds to team game excitement and is so rare it should matter in most games. Its like saying that the dice should be fixed so that after so many rounds the players are even on their wins/losses. Or maybe it isnt like that.
But I think Burnaby should remain completely random in terms of starting territories.
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Sep25 - p29)

Postby iancanton on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:59 am

it looks as if there's nothing wrong with the new start positions.

don’t worry, justcallmestupid. in most 2-player and 3-player games with the start positions, at least one player will continue to start with at least 2 burnaby regions. the start positions merely prevent someone from starting with all 4. games with 4 or more players, including all team games, will have no start positions and burnaby will be completely random.

a +4 bonus for burnaby seems fairer (except to those players who are holding it in a game just now).

ian. :)
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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Nov18 - p32)

Postby shakeycat on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:21 pm

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Re: Vancouver Map [BETA] (Nov18 - p32)

Postby MrBenn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:36 pm

There have been no further issues, so once these changes have gone live, it shouldn't be long before we can take this out of Beta.
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