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Oceania [Quenched]

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NEW VERSION RELEASED! (01/28/09)

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:04 am

Pikkio and me decided to create a new version of map two fix some problems:
I try to explain our decision:

    [1] Old map has some problem with dark water, the new backgroud is a "semirealistic view" of this zone ( like you 're on a plane)
    [2] We changed colors to have a more thematic map, we use this pic to choose color as community requested to us:
    http://www.worldwidevacationspots.com/content_images/french%20polynesia%20cuisine.jpg
    [3] We did a coulored text version (4.0) that for us is the best choice, continets are more immediately in this way
    [4] Some small isles was resized to have a better view
    [5] We did a neon version (4.2) but for us , neon makes all more chaotic and create some tech problems with coloured names

Now community have to choose the features of this map
After that graphic will be fixed definitevely and we will start to discuss about gameplay features.

Version 4.0 - Colors Version

Click image to enlarge.
image


Version 4.1 - Standard Version

Click image to enlarge.
image


Version 4.2 - Neon Version

Click image to enlarge.
image


I have some problems with poll, it will start tomorrow, i hope..... :oops:

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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby gho on Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:16 am

Youve lost a lot of brightness (which i found appealing) with this latest map. Maybe you could have the continent names the old way (white with neon colour behind it) and have the coloured text for the names of the territories.
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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:12 am

gho wrote:Youve lost a lot of brightness (which i found appealing) with this latest map. Maybe you could have the continent names the old way (white with neon colour behind it) and have the coloured text for the names of the territories.


You are writing about all latest versions or about one in particular?
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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby edbeard on Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:27 pm

I like the colours version. zero if you will.


Bonuses are still very much "off" or at least a bit strange/difficult to figure out.

One thing that is certain is that Kiribati is not +4. 4 territories with 3 borders? only 5 territories from 2 continents can attack. and, expansion to Micronesia might not be too difficult.

Micronesia for instance has 6 territories with 3 borders. it borders 2 continents in 3 territories. Furthermore, it is a potential 7 territory 2 border continent that borders 3 continents in 4 territories. I'm not sure that's a +4 region. +3 seems more apt. maybe others disagree. Or, possibly a border redraw here would help. maybe Caroline Islands should border Papua New Guinea. though that might screw up the Melanesia bonus..


East Indonesia is probably only +4 as well if you consider it's only 5 territories. But, compare that to Melanesia and it's obviously not worth the same as that? So do you keep it as you have it thereby making the bigger bonus of Polynesia relatively wrong. I could go on forever doing these comparisons.


Underlying problem is that some bonuses work if you look at it alone but in the bigger picture they look messed up. Compare Kiribati to East Indonesia right now. Or even if you change them to +3 and +4 respectively like I've said, they still seem relatively wrong (though less than before)


"fixing" this might require changes to gameplay like different borders which in some cases might be easy considering they're done via water routes.

Ideas? well. Add this border...

Papa New Guinea-Caroline Islands

Then these bonuses (randomly placed. sorry) look a lot better to me.

Australia: +8
Polynesia: +6
New Zealand: +3
East Indonesia: +5
Melanesia: +5
Kiribati: +3
Micronesia: +4
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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby LLLUUUKKKEEE on Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:57 am

This map looks great,
But I agree with most, the water needs to be lighter and more tropical.
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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:20 am

LLLUUUKKKEEE wrote:This map looks great,
But I agree with most, the water needs to be lighter and more tropical.


AS said we did a poll to decide this, now the opinion is changed, we did a water like it's if you take a look on goole maps/earth.
Sorry but water color is locked now.
Now we're discussiong about territories color and name colors and starting discussing gameplay and bonuses, as edbeard's reply.
Today i 'll try to open a new poll ( if it will works! :evil: )
I so sorry :( to lock colors and water but we have the necessity to go throught...we can't re-discuss an already public-decided point.
Please focus on gameplay and bonuses.
Thank you

edbeard wrote:Bonuses are still very much "off" or at least a bit strange/difficult to figure out.
One thing that is certain is that Kiribati is not +4. 4 territories with 3 borders? only 5 territories from 2 continents can attack. and, expansion to Micronesia might not be too difficult.
Micronesia for instance has 6 territories with 3 borders. it borders 2 continents in 3 territories. Furthermore, it is a potential 7 territory 2 border continent that borders 3 continents in 4 territories. I'm not sure that's a +4 region. +3 seems more apt. maybe others disagree. Or, possibly a border redraw here would help. maybe Caroline Islands should border Papua New Guinea. though that might screw up the Melanesia bonus..
East Indonesia is probably only +4 as well if you consider it's only 5 territories. But, compare that to Melanesia and it's obviously not worth the same as that? So do you keep it as you have it thereby making the bigger bonus of Polynesia relatively wrong. I could go on forever doing these comparisons.
Underlying problem is that some bonuses work if you look at it alone but in the bigger picture they look messed up. Compare Kiribati to East Indonesia right now. Or even if you change them to +3 and +4 respectively like I've said, they still seem relatively wrong (though less than before)
"fixing" this might require changes to gameplay like different borders which in some cases might be easy considering they're done via water routes.
Ideas? well. Add this border...
Papa New Guinea-Caroline Islands
Then these bonuses (randomly placed. sorry) look a lot better to me.
Australia: +8
Polynesia: +6
New Zealand: +3
East Indonesia: +5
Melanesia: +5
Kiribati: +3
Micronesia: +4


You're great! I will check the bonuses this evening, formula is here and based on widowmaker's spreadsheet.But probably you're right, and in these days i supposed that bonuses will be changed because i simulated a game on this map and it make me :?
Probably i like to give for New Zealand only +2 and obviously decrease all other with a proportional method.I try to apply your suggestions.

Thank you very much

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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:00 pm

Poll restart, thank you Mr.Benn =D>
:oops: I didn't again !
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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW LOOK (01/28/09) [D]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:00 pm

POLL RESULT

Which final graphical look? (page 9)
Poll ended at Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:55 pm

Colors vers. 4.0... 7... 78%
Standard vers. 4.1... 2... 22%
Neon vers. 4.2... 0... No votes

Total votes : 9

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Re: OCEANIA MAP - DISCUSSING GAMEPLAY (02/05/09) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:52 am

Thank you Mr.Benn

Now community has made the choice...
The final graphic of this map is the coloured version (here).
Obviously to have a balanced gameplay and a playable map there will be some update, but all them will be minor and connected with gameplay.

In few days we will post a new version with some fix, following edbeard suggestions, well explained and motivated.

I will contact the graphic today to know when we are ready with new version.

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Re: OCEANIA MAP NEW VERSION (02/05/09) [D]

Postby Joodoo on Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:57 am

this is a nice map...
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Re: OCEANIA MAP (gameplay under discussion) [D]

Postby Blitzaholic on Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:00 pm

looks nice, i like the variety of colors as well
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Re: OCEANIA MAP (gameplay under discussion) [D]

Postby iancanton on Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:27 pm

before u try to fix the gameplay, can i suggest some changes to the geography to make the map more credible, especially in the eyes of our oceanian friends? the number of territories, 44, is good, so don't change this.

the ashmore islands are uninhabited lumps of rock that have no importance, while ACT (australian capital territory) – where the capital city of the most powerful country on the map is located - is missing. i propose that ACT (which borders new south wales and nothing else) replaces the ashmore islands.

the coral islands are, i think, called the whitsunday islands.

as the number two country of the region, i'd like new zealand's 4 major cities to be included, so that it has 5 territories in total: auckland and wellington (both on north island), christchurch and dunedin (both on south island) and chatham islands. remove the kermadec islands and line islands, which are both uninhabited, from the map. this keeps the territory count at 44.

make the air routes more realistic: let christchurch (south island) link to victoria, not to tasmania, and give auckland (north island) an additional link to sydney (new south wales).

the names of two of the island groups can be replaced by the names of the (more famous) largest island: north mariana islands becomes saipan and french polynesia becomes tahiti. u can then increase the size of each of these islands to maybe 10mm on the large map, so that we can see their shape properly!

u are receiving many positive comments about the look of the map so far. i'll add my support to this aspect, especially the vibrant colours.

ian. :)
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Re: OCEANIA MAP (gameplay under discussion) [D]

Postby nazlfrag on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:57 am

I really like this map, you've done fantastically well with the look and it looks like it will be fun to play. It works nicely with the Asia map starting where that one stops. I did notice a couple grey dots near the top right though, look like leftover uncoloured bits of island or something.

Regarding Ians ideas above, the ACT seems like a bit much, it just gives whoever has NSW 1 extra territory without adding anything much to the map. It has some RL importance but it is tiny, really just a city, and for the purposes here Australia already has plenty of territories. Still, there are the Ashmore and Line islands which I agree have no RL importance are there, so why not Canberra. Perhaps just remove those two islands and add two territories to New Zealand, one on each the north and south islands, and make it worth +4 and Kiribati +3. I also agree that links to/from NZ and mainland Australia would also be sensible and a good addition.
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Re: OCEANIA MAP (gameplay under discussion) [D]

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:42 am

it looks a little too flat to me, maybe try adding some height to the land
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UPDATE! OCEANIA MAP V5 (NEW ATTACK!) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:43 pm

Update 02/15/2009

Oceania Map v5

Click image to enlarge.
image


Modifications:

i try to sodisfy as large as possible the community request:

  • wrong bonuses:
    show
    Decision:Bonuses resetted, as you can see a "+X" is displayed on map legend.

  • Adding new territories:
    show
    Decision:
      [1] ACT isn't possible to add, because this is the large map, in small map this territory is too unclear.Ashmore Islands removed.
      [2]New Zealand north island divided in two smaller territories: Auckland and Wellington ; south island divided in two smaller territories:dunedin and christchurch, Kermadeck islands removed
      [3]Line islands not removed, kiribati will be too small if removed.
  • New routes
    show
    Decision:ALL ROUTES resetted and rewrited to a better gameplay.All continents have a "hidden" territory, good for assassin and fog. Others are similar to last version, but something changed.

  • Territory names
    show
    Decision:NAMES CHANGED, and locked!
  • Territory to flat
    show
    Decision:FIXED
Last edited by thenobodies80 on Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5 (NEW!) [D]

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:29 pm

Can you please get rid of the "and idea"? Ideas are thrown out there all the time, and I would expect to find at least 3 other threads in the recycling bin where someone suggested a map of Oceania. This has also not been put on any of the quenched maps we have.


I like that the dotted lines extend from map circle to map circle, but can you please either stay consistent on that for mainland Australia, or have them extend to the coast rather than a bit into the land, but not to the army circle.
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5 (NEW!) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:39 am

The Neon Peon wrote:Can you please get rid of the "and idea"? Ideas are thrown out there all the time, and I would expect to find at least 3 other threads in the recycling bin where someone suggested a map of Oceania. This has also not been put on any of the quenched maps we have.


I like that the dotted lines extend from map circle to map circle, but can you please either stay consistent on that for mainland Australia, or have them extend to the coast rather than a bit into the land, but not to the army circle.



Already contacted the graphic, there will be a minor update in few days. ;)
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5 (UPDATE PG.10) [D]

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:00 am

it still looks pretty flat
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OCEANIA MAP V5.1 (Minor Update 02/18/2009) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:28 pm

Update 02/18/2009

Oceania Map v5.1

Click image to enlarge.
image


The Neon Peon wrote:Can you please get rid of the "and idea"? Ideas are thrown out there all the time, and I would expect to find at least 3 other threads in the recycling bin where someone suggested a map of Oceania. This has also not been put on any of the quenched maps we have.
I like that the dotted lines extend from map circle to map circle, but can you please either stay consistent on that for mainland Australia, or have them extend to the coast rather than a bit into the land, but not to the army circle.


FIXED

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:it still looks pretty flat


FIXED

Others graphical details will be added in future. ;)

Next update :

- Fixed Legend
- Starting armies/neutrals
- New Bonuses
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5 (UPDATE PG.10) [D]

Postby iancanton on Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:49 pm

this map is developing very nicely.

a couple of errors in the names: whitsundays islands is whitsunday islands and solomon island is solomon islands. also, wellngton is wellington.

http://www.tourismwhitsundays.com.au/rt ... 9DC6ED7B5A
http://www.visitsolomons.com.sb/

can u draw a new zealand air route from auckland to christchurch, to help with fortification? at the moment, new zealand is very linear. to do this, move the text for wellington to the left, so that there is space for the dotted line.

from norfolk island, remove the air route to lord howe island. draw an air route to queensland. similarly, remove the solomon islands to whitsunday islands route and draw solomon islands to queensland. remove both of the air routes to western australia. taken together, these changes will reduces australia's border territories from 7 to 5, so that it becomes possible to hold, while fortification becomes easier.

the brighter air routes are a good gameplay improvement.

i'd like to see some islands such as tahiti drawn bigger, at least the size of an army circle, so that we can see their distinctive shape.

http://www.tahiti-tourisme.com/islands/ ... mapbig.asp

ian. :)
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5 (UPDATE 02/18/2009 Pg.10) [D]

Postby gho on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:57 am

I think the islands are the right size and don't think you should increase the size to an unreal size. I think you should put some 'designs' like the islands picture next to the word Oceania in the top left corner of the map and maybe another one next to your signatures on the bottom left, as currently those areas look really bare (esp. top left, where you look at first)
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5 (UPDATE 02/18/2009 Pg.10) [D]

Postby pikkio on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:39 am

gho wrote:I think you should put some 'designs' like the islands picture next to the word Oceania in the top left corner of the map and maybe another one next to your signatures on the bottom left, as currently those areas look really bare (esp. top left, where you look at first)


yes, it's still in program. ^_^ first i want to fix the general graphic. ;)
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5.2 (UPDATE 02/19) [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:23 pm

Version 5.2 NEW!

Click image to enlarge.
image


show: some errors in territory names
DONE- all names fixed

show: NZ new air route
DONE WITH MODIFICATIONS - air route added but wellington moved to the opposite side. Looks better ;)

show: AU new air routes
PARTIALLY DONE - We rewrite air routes partially, we discussed for long time about it but we don't like the "from solomon to queensland" one. there could be some graphical problems and i don't think that's a good choice for gameplay.Aussie with 6 borders is good for us.

show: resize small islands
REFUSED - Pikkio complitely refused this option, and i'm complitely agree with him. we oversized the smaller islands yet (here). Another resize is too :shock: , we assure you!

show: graphic
DONE WITH MODIFICATIONS - added some graphic elements as requested and one in aussie to have it more less flat

NEXT UPDATE:

    - starting positions
    - starting neutrals

while waiting new version, please suggest! :D
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OCEANIA MAP V5.2 - new bonuses [D]

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:10 pm

After fixing attacks,i try to calculate new bonuses on v5.2

I calculated with bonuses spreadsheet in Map making tools.
but i'm not sure that the results will be right for this map.

Click image to enlarge.
image


i try to do some modifications

  • Australia is the biggest one.
    But there's some dead ends...(good for assassins or foggy games).
    10 territories, but when you take western, south, tasmania,lord howe, it similar to a 5 territories continets.
    So, calculated bonus is a quite too.
    probably i think that the good choices could be -1 than polynesia
  • New Zealand is 5 territories, but defendable with only 2 territories (40%).
    I suppose that +2 is enough. In my opinion is the easiest to defend.
  • Melanesia 5 territories but the hardest to hold
    i supposed +4
  • East Indonesia 5 territories, with two dead ends.
    only +3
  • Micronesia is 6 territories
    probably +4, one for any border.
  • Kiribati is smaller but it has 75% of territories under enemies fire
    so probably +3 is good.
  • Polynesia could be +6 or +7
    it could be attacked by 6 routes, but it's easy try to take line islands and reduce them to 5.
    In this way an expansion to kiribati seems easy to do.
    This continents isn't so easy to hold.


OCEANIA BONUSES:
Australia +5
New Zealand +2
Melanesia +4
East Indonesia +3
Micronesia +4
Kiribati +3
Polynesia +6

I will open a new poll.

Waiting your response
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Re: OCEANIA MAP V5.2 - new bonuses [D]

Postby iancanton on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:27 am

thenobodies80 wrote:I calculated with bonuses spreadsheet in Map making tools.
but i'm not sure that the results will be right for this map.

thenobodies80 wrote:i try to do some modifications

OCEANIA BONUSES:
Australia +5
New Zealand +2
Melanesia +4
East Indonesia +3
Micronesia +4
Kiribati +3
Polynesia +6

i think that u have a good eye for bonuses, as ur figures are much better than the ones on the spreadsheet. the only one that i'd increase is australia: by comparison with classic north america, which has 3 border territories out of 9 for a +5 bonus, our australia has 6 border territories (5 if u remove whitsunday islands to solomon islands) out of 10, so i think it's worth +6.

to help those who want to try a strategy of holding australia, i'd like also to remove the following air routes: west papua to northern territory, west papua to queensland and whitsunday islands to solomon islands. this means there are 3 dead-ends in australia, so connect south australia to tasmania. u'll be happy to hear that these are the final changes i have for australia!

can u draw new air routes from guam to palau and guam to marshall islands, so that fortifications can go through guam as well as caroline islands (in real life, guam has a busy international airport)? at the moment, if an opponent takes caroline islands, then the micronesia player is crippled.

thenobodies80 wrote:[3]Line islands not removed, kiribati will be too small if removed.

i like ur gameplay principle of keeping the smallest continent at 4 territories minimum, which reduces the chance of unfair starts.

ian. :)
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