Portland [Quenched]

[flexmaster33]

looks better each time I catch a glimpse lost....can't wait to get a chance to play it.

[lostatlimbo]

10th Draft update:
Altered borders in N & NE, by extending railroad tracks to St. Johns and shrinking Swan Island.
Removed 4-way border in NE.
Dropped a Yellow Max stop and added a new territory to NE (Cully).
#6 Max stop no longer attacks Oregon Zoo.
#5 Max stop unchanged. Downtown can be defended with 4 territories either way.
Changed train and bridge graphics.
Removed ability for bike lanes to attack each other.
Fareless square starts with 3 neutral. -1 army each turn held.

[mibi]

Is Portland really as confusing and discombobulated as this map suggests?

[lostatlimbo]

Is Portland really as confusing and discombobulated as this map suggests?

boy, that's some helpful criticism. care to tell us what you find confusing?

Side note: I did just notice I need to re-add that you can't cross Max lines. I'll put that in the next update.

[mibi]

Is Portland really as confusing and discombobulated as this map suggests?

boy, that's some helpful criticism. care to tell us what you find confusing?

You know I was initially all for this map in the beginning. As someone pointed out it did have a kitsch aspect to itself, though that has revealed it self over the course of the various drafts as plain old amateurism. It seems like the iconography on this map is growing like malignant tumors. In its current incarnation it looks as if you took a bag webdings and flung it at the map to see what stuck. A bike here, a rose there, a submarine or something, a bridge a rail a road, some parks that escaped from a demented game of Tetris. There is something near Hawthorn which is unlabeled, which I suppose doesn't matter because its also unlabeled in the legend too. It says its a detour, so I will just pretend it's door to another dimension. Oh and there is another detour which is a blue blob. I will have to check out the blue blob next time I am in Portland. I can only imagine a player trying to play this with out BOB. "I got a rose a shoe and a bike, what do I win?!" "No no, you need 6 bikes, or a rose a shoe and one of those black dildo things" An then you have what I am assuming are highways all wrapped up in the bonus structure, with negative bonuses too. With all those bonuses what is the point of even having separate districts in there. Infact, you might as well just take out the whole Porland thing and just have it be a map of random floating icons, because thats pretty much what this is already.

My advice is to take this map and shake the shit of it like an Etch-a-Sketch that has a picture of your ex-girlfriend on it. Shake it hard and long and see how many of those little doodads you can get to fall off. Go back to the Rose City and try to get a sense of what that city is about, and if you still comeback with the same Epcot-chique style you have now, I'd hang up those cartography gloves, because I would be right annoyed if I were a Portland resident and some jackass just turned my city into a child's place mat gone horribly wrong.

[lostatlimbo]

...I would be right annoyed if I were a Portland resident and some jackass just turned my city into a child's place mat gone horribly wrong.

Misplace anger much?

I know I've gone astray when the guy who created Supermax: Colored Button Riot! tells me I have too many icons.

The 'demented' parks are reasonably close to their actual shapes, though I can't say the same for scale and location - details sacrificed for clarity and balance.
Ditto for the two reservoirs, which seem quite clear as bodies of water. I'd hoped the grey dimensional door would be mistaken for a maddening maze of residential roads - which any Portland resident would instantly recognize as the "no-drive" zone Ladd's Circle.

I don't expect that labeling it as such in the legend will help explain this, but it is clearly an obstruction. Do forgive me for being a little creative and adding detours that stray from the typical mountain-river-fence trifecta that marks most of the 130 maps in play. I'm equally as sorry for using bikes and parks, instead of the typical cannons and battleships. Are you angry that I have too many icons or just that they aren't violent enough for your tastes?

Since Portland isn't actually a war zone, I thought I'd try something new and highlight the things that make Portland unique. The fact that you can easily get anywhere in town by bike (without being run over) isn't something you can say about most US cities. Ditto to an overabundance of park space. If you had bothered to read the legend, you'd know that the "highways" are a light rail transit system (with the highest ridership in the US). These aren't frivolous icons - they are the whole purpose of having a Portland map. I suppose I could have made the 67th war map or drawn artificial borders over yet another random country, but I elected to try something new instead.

And yes, I opted for a kitschy look. From the very beginning, it was meant to look more like a tourist-y brochure extolling all these Portland-y characteristics. I think clean, clear lines and bold colors work well for this map and, again I'll reference NYC map as my initial inspiration in this regard.

Despite your vitriol, your overlying point was not lost on me. The map was getting a bit cluttered visually, so I've made some changes to minimize this by toning down the boldest icons. I've also converted the bike lanes into their own territories - which I believe improves the look & gameplay and gives the bike lanes more purpose.

As for your ex-girlfriend issues - I can't help you, but there are more fish in the sea. When you've gotten your angst under control, come back and let me know if my next update soothes the pain.

[danfrank]

...I would be right annoyed if I were a Portland resident and some jackass just turned my city into a child's place mat gone horribly wrong.

Misplace anger much?

I know I've gone astray when the guy who created Supermax: Colored Button Riot! tells me I have too many icons.

The 'demented' parks are reasonably close to their actual shapes, though I can't say the same for scale and location - details sacrificed for clarity and balance.
Ditto for the two reservoirs, which seem quite clear as bodies of water. I'd hoped the grey dimensional door would be mistaken for a maddening maze of residential roads - which any Portland resident would instantly recognize as the "no-drive" zone Ladd's Circle.

I don't expect that labeling it as such in the legend will help explain this, but it is clearly an obstruction. Do forgive me for being a little creative and adding detours that stray from the typical mountain-river-fence trifecta that marks most of the 130 maps in play. I'm equally as sorry for using bikes and parks, instead of the typical cannons and battleships. Are you angry that I have too many icons or just that they aren't violent enough for your tastes?

Since Portland isn't actually a war zone, I thought I'd try something new and highlight the things that make Portland unique. The fact that you can easily get anywhere in town by bike (without being run over) isn't something you can say about most US cities. Ditto to an overabundance of park space. If you had bothered to read the legend, you'd know that the "highways" are a light rail transit system (with the highest ridership in the US). These aren't frivolous icons - they are the whole purpose of having a Portland map. I suppose I could have made the 67th war map or drawn artificial borders over yet another random country, but I elected to try something new instead.

And yes, I opted for a kitschy look. From the very beginning, it was meant to look more like a tourist-y brochure extolling all these Portland-y characteristics. I think clean, clear lines and bold colors work well for this map and, again I'll reference NYC map as my initial inspiration in this regard.

Despite your vitriol, your overlying point was not lost on me. The map was getting a bit cluttered visually, so I've made some changes to minimize this by toning down the boldest icons. I've also converted the bike lanes into their own territories - which I believe improves the look & gameplay and gives the bike lanes more purpose.

As for your ex-girlfriend issues - I can't help you, but there are more fish in the sea. When you've gotten your angst under control, come back and let me know if my next update soothes the pain.

Well , he`s from the great state of vermont, Misplaced anger ? only if he is a conservative. Vermont ranks right up there with california as being the far looney left.. Constructive criticism can not be expected from indivuals of this type. Just look at what they did to joe the plumber and Miss california...

[mibi]

I know I've gone astray when the guy who created Supermax: Colored Button Riot! tells me I have too many icons.

lol, nice one. I wonder if Lack can do a name change on that map.

[lostatlimbo]

11th Draft update:

• Added 4 new territories (N Bike Lane, NE Bike Lane, SE Bike Lane, Forest Park Bike Lane) in place of former Bike bonuses. These territories start 6 neutral.
  Now that there are less of these and they are separate (and neutral) territories, I think its okay to have them attack each other. I like the idea of them being a way to move around the map. Neutral armies prevent them from being as detrimental as before and I've upped the bonus to 8 since it will be harder to capture and keep them.
  Is it clear enough that they are connected or does this need to be explained better? Should I add 2 more territories some where for an even 48?
• I toned down some of the stronger visuals to reduce clutter. I "un-blobbed" the reservoirs to the best of my ability and flattened out various other icons.
• I added Max Lines to the Detour (Don't Cross) list and labeled these. I don't know what else to call Ladd's Circle. Road maze? If the neighborhoods don't need explanation - why this?
• I'm open to suggestions for a better legend background.

[lostatlimbo]

Just look at what they did to joe the plumber and Miss california...

Aren't they in one of Obama's Socialist Reprogramming Camps by now?

(Pssst... I don't want to alarm you, but Oregon is also known as one of the most liberal states in the Confederacy, ...I mean, the USA. Ooops!)

[iancanton]

11th Draft update:
[list][*]Added 4 new territories (N Bike Lane, NE Bike Lane, SE Bike Lane, Forest Park Bike Lane) in place of former Bike bonuses. These territories start 6 neutral.
Now that there are less of these and they are separate (and neutral) territories, I think its okay to have them attack each other. I like the idea of them being a way to move around the map. Neutral armies prevent them from being as detrimental as before and I've upped the bonus to 8 since it will be harder to capture and keep them.

6 starting neutrals simply means that no-one will attack the bike lanes, so they'll be useless as a method of transport.

Should I add 2 more territories some where for an even 48?

i strongly recommend that the number of non-neutral starting regions is either 42 to 44 or 52, but certainly not 48. this is because, with 48 starting regions, each player in a 2v2 game starts with 12 regions so, by conquering only 1 region, player 1 can knock down player 2's deployment to only 3 armies before he's had a chance to do anything.

#5 Max stop unchanged. Downtown can be defended with 4 territories either way.

the downtown bonus needs defenders on all 6 regions, since #5 max can attack both pioneer and goose hollow. if u delete the pioneer exit and change the goose hollow one so it goes to nob hill instead, then downtown will have only 4 border regions (but it also splits downtown in half, with no easy way to go between the two).

ian.

[lostatlimbo]

6 starting neutrals simply means that no-one will attack the bike lanes, so they'll be useless as a method of transport.

Good point. Initially, you'd have to off 12 armies to get anywhere. What about 4 neutrals? Or 3?

the downtown bonus needs defenders on all 6 regions, since #5 max can attack both pioneer and goose hollow. if u delete the pioneer exit and change the goose hollow one so it goes to nob hill instead, then downtown will have only 4 border regions (but it also splits downtown in half, with no easy way to go between the two).

I'm afraid you are wrong here. To defend downtown, you only need to place troops on Nob Hill, The Pearl, PSU and Max Stop #5. This makes it somewhat comparable to SE, in that you'd need to hold 7 territories, but only defend 4. They both have a bonus of +5.

I'll try to make another update this weekend. Thanks for the insight, ian!

[lostatlimbo]

12th Draft update:
Removed Bike Lane bonus and lowered neutrals to 3 a piece - resetting if held one round.
Transit Center is now -1 only if a MAX bonus is held.
Raised MAX bonuses by 2 each.
Lowered N bonus to 3.

Click image to enlarge.

[lostatlimbo]

poll bump

[Teflon Kris]

HI

Latest Changes
On your latest update you mention bonus changes - however, they seem the same as previously in the update.

Bike Territories
I'm wondering if you will still have the same problem with killer neutrals, as opposed to the large-ish (6) neutrals you had before.

Players will often go through one killer neutral territory to reach an opponent (and hit their bonus etc) but I imagine it would be extremely rare for players to lose troops going through two killer neutral territories. I can see your aim here - you want the bike routes to be an alternative, but difficult attack route. Perhaps you could have 'decay' on the bikes instead (i.e. they lose 1 army per round rather than resetting to neutral)? It may also be worth considering why the bike lanes would have decay - you may need to explain this in the key (e.g. they are too narrow for military operations).

Number of Territories
As far as I can see, you have 48, with 4 starting neutral (the bikes) - 44 starting territories - this is a great number for gameplay purposes as ian mentioned above.

Metro Bonuses
My reading of the bonus key (and probably most players' reading) is that only one player could hold metro bonus(es) due to the central junction being required by all. Just thought I'd double-check. This would make the central territory a key position, although it may deter many players from trying to secure a metro bonus. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that, just food for thought when thinking through how games may develop.

[lostatlimbo]

Latest Changes
On your latest update you mention bonus changes - however, they seem the same as previously in the update.

Oops! I neglected to change the image link. Thanks for pointing this out.

Number of Territories
As far as I can see, you have 48, with 4 starting neutral (the bikes) - 44 starting territories - this is a great number for gameplay purposes as ian mentioned above.

I've counted and re-counted and still get 46 total - 4 neutral for 42. Are you counting MAX #1 & #2 twice? Or am I missing something on my own map? (very probable).

Bike Territories
I'm wondering if you will still have the same problem with killer neutrals, as opposed to the large-ish (6) neutrals you had before.
Players will often go through one killer neutral territory to reach an opponent (and hit their bonus etc) but I imagine it would be extremely rare for players to lose troops going through two killer neutral territories. I can see your aim here - you want the bike routes to be an alternative, but difficult attack route. Perhaps you could have 'decay' on the bikes instead (i.e. they lose 1 army per round rather than resetting to neutral)? It may also be worth considering why the bike lanes would have decay - you may need to explain this in the key (e.g. they are too narrow for military operations).

I've been playing the Eastern Empires map and I really like the Naval Superiority element - which resets to 4. Granted, it is only 1 spot instead of 4 and I do see your point about losing 6, but I don't envision the bike lanes being used frequently. What makes it different is that - unlike the Naval territory - you can move your armies off the Bike Lanes, so you don't have to "use it or lose it" with however many troops you move there. It functions almost solely as a transportation territory. I also like the idea that they open you up to retaliation (as it will not reset until your begin your next turn) - something a player would need to keep in mind when making a big offensive move. Perhaps I should knock it down to 2 neutrals each?

I am open to the decay idea though. If I went that route, it could be explained as "danger from vehicles" (which is a very real problem in Portland - not everyone is on the bike bandwagon and collisions happen - usually to the detriment of the cyclist). My only problem with it is that there really is no reason to hold on to those territories (no bonus), so a -1 decay doesn't strike me as much of a drawback.

Metro Bonuses
My reading of the bonus key (and probably most players' reading) is that only one player could hold metro bonus(es) due to the central junction being required by all. Just thought I'd double-check. This would make the central territory a key position, although it may deter many players from trying to secure a metro bonus. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that, just food for thought when thinking through how games may develop.

[/quote]
That is correct - only one player can have a metro bonus at one time. Your concerns are why I upped the bonuses to 4, 6 & 6 (which should show up now).

What intrigues me about the Metro bonus is its high potential. While it is difficult to hold, you can easily turn a bonus of 5 into a bonus of 15 with only 4 additional territories (or 9-11 with 2 more territories). These territories will also be very valuable for bottleneck defenses - so I can see them playing a major part in the game.


Thanks for your comments. I'll mull your suggestions over.

[Teflon Kris]

No. territories
Sorry, you are right 46 (-4 neutral) - still a good number though (4 players would start with 10, 2 players with 14).

Metro Bonuses
I see your thinking here - the Metro stations would generally be border-crossings between the normal bonus areas - gaining control of the metro system would be tricky - if it happens and a player holds all 3 then that could be game over from the big bonus. Whether this would work requires a little more careful thought - wouldn't like to give a hasty opinion (at this moment in time) for or against the metro bonus system in general. Ian or myself will come back to you on this soon.

However, the yellow line has just 3 stations and a +4 bonus. There is a danger this may be gained on the drop. There are a few options you may wish to think about to resolve this (coded starts for example and making one station a neutral - although this would change your no. of starting territories).

The Bike Routes
I agree that killer neutrals would be preferable and perhaps setting them all as +2 is the solution - my immediate reaction is that this would work, although, again, I reserve proper considered judgement.

The main thing is that the bike routes are a viable option which players will use (like Naval Superiority in Eastern Hemisphere as you say) - this makes the 4 areas they are in more difficult to hold. When bonus values are fine-tuned, it is important that the routes are viable.

I'm impressed with your quick responses and updates, good work. Plus, it is great that you are open and willing to respond to feedback, as demonstrated by the fact that you have a poll considering the name of the map. Keep it up.

[iancanton]

is there any need to have the -1 negative bonus for holding the max transit center? since the negative bonus is now operational only when a max bonus is held, it no longer seems to have much effect on anything and looks gimmicky. however, increasing the max bonuses, which are awkward to hold, to their current level is certainly a good move.

as dj says, if u want to avoid fixed starting neutrals, then the yellow max line will need to be coded as start positions to reduce the incidence of unfair starts. i think this can be best achieved by pairing each of the three yellow stations with one of the southwest regions to create 3 sets of 2 start positions. in a 1v1 game, only 2 of the sets of 2 will serve as start positions, while the regions in the third set will be allocated in the normal way along with the ordinary regions and stations.

might portland: rose city be a good title for the purposes of the gamefinder's drop-down list?

ian.

[lostatlimbo]

thanks both for the great feedback. I will try to get another update made next week.

[lostatlimbo]

The main thing is that the bike routes are a viable option which players will use (like Naval Superiority in Eastern Hemisphere as you say) - this makes the 4 areas they are in more difficult to hold. When bonus values are fine-tuned, it is important that the routes are viable.

it does appear that the bike lanes invalidate the changes i made to make bonuses easier to hold. even with +4 to get through each attack, it makes for difficult defense as the game progresses. next update, i will try moving the bike lanes to only touch one or two territories. (primarily removing it from Hawthorne, Alberta Arts & University).

is there any need to have the -1 negative bonus for holding the max transit center? since the negative bonus is now operational only when a max bonus is held, it no longer seems to have much effect on anything and looks gimmicky. however, increasing the max bonuses, which are awkward to hold, to their current level is certainly a good move.

my thought here is that the "Fareless Square" (called so in real life too), you lose a troop like a transit owner would lose money by not charging a fare. as for gameplay, i thought it would help offset the value of that territory. since it is the primary connector for all Max lines and required for any of the bonuses, i could forsee it being heavily guarded and the -1 would act as a minor penalty. that said, i'm not opposed to dropping it if the experts feel otherwise.

as dj says, if u want to avoid fixed starting neutrals, then the yellow max line will need to be coded as start positions to reduce the incidence of unfair starts. i think this can be best achieved by pairing each of the three yellow stations with one of the southwest regions to create 3 sets of 2 start positions. in a 1v1 game, only 2 of the sets of 2 will serve as start positions, while the regions in the third set will be allocated in the normal way along with the ordinary regions and stations.

sounds like a good solution to me!

might portland: rose city be a good title for the purposes of the gamefinder's drop-down list?

since the poll finished so close, i think this is a fine idea.

thanks

[Teflon Kris]

Fareless Square

Just an idea worth contemplating - to make this territory difficult to hold then why not have decay as opposed to an overall -1 bonus? You could have decay of -1 or -2 perhaps? It would mean players would find it hard to hold the bonus(es) for more than one round, which could make for interesting gameplay (e.g. players go for the bonus just before a big assault to try and win the game).

[lostatlimbo]

Fareless Square

Just an idea worth contemplating - to make this territory difficult to hold then why not have decay as opposed to an overall -1 bonus? You could have decay of -1 or -2 perhaps? It would mean players would find it hard to hold the bonus(es) for more than one round, which could make for interesting gameplay (e.g. players go for the bonus just before a big assault to try and win the game).

Yes. That was the initial idea. Sorry if I did not explain that well.

I also just realized that I keep interchanging the names "Transit Center" and "Fareless Square", which probably isn't helping - but they are the same territory.

My only question now is - does the XML allow for an auto decay only when a particular bonus or set of bonuses are held?

[iancanton]

the downtown bonus needs defenders on all 6 regions, since #5 max can attack both pioneer and goose hollow. if u delete the pioneer exit and change the goose hollow one so it goes to nob hill instead, then downtown will have only 4 border regions (but it also splits downtown in half, with no easy way to go between the two).

I'm afraid you are wrong here. To defend downtown, you only need to place troops on Nob Hill, The Pearl, PSU and Max Stop #5. This makes it somewhat comparable to SE, in that you'd need to hold 7 territories, but only defend 4. They both have a bonus of +5.

i see ur thinking. downtown has to be worth a bigger bonus (+6?) for two reasons: its central position means it can be attacked by more bonus zones and one of the 7 regions needed to make it defensible is contested by the blue max bonus in such a way that peaceful coexistence with the blue max player is difficult.

it does appear that the bike lanes invalidate the changes i made to make bonuses easier to hold. even with +4 to get through each attack, it makes for difficult defense as the game progresses. next update, i will try moving the bike lanes to only touch one or two territories. (primarily removing it from Hawthorne, Alberta Arts & University).

i like this proposal.

does the XML allow for an auto decay only when a particular bonus or set of bonuses are held?

i'm not aware that the xml can do this. however, a negative bonus (not decay) can be simulated by a bonus override if two or more max lines are held.

instead of +5 for holding 5 public parks, make the public parks bonus +7 for holding 6. this is because mrbenn's bonus calculator shows that, in a 2-player game, player 1 starts with 5 parks 6.6% of the time, which is too high when u consider that it's not the only bonus on the board. the chance of player 1 starting with a 6-parks bonus is only 1.1%, which is much more reasonable.

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=84998

just as u've done with yellow max, can u run blue max to the edge of the page to separate sw from nw? this will turn sylvan heights into a non-border region and reduce nw to a +3 bonus.

every name label on the map is horizontal except for psu and pioneer, which are diagonal. can u fix them?

ian.

[Hatchman]

Just seeing this for the first time. Nice concept. Looks great!

[lostatlimbo]

13th Draft update:
Raised bonus for parks, downtown, NE & blue line MAX.
I realized NE was also too low due to separation by railroad and bike lane threat and that blue line MAX more vulnerable than red line.

Blue line extended
Bike lane killer neutrals lowered to 2, removed from University, Alberta, Hawthorne.

-1 bonus adjustment for holding two MAX lines, -2 for holding all three.
I think I like this change. It would be somewhat easy for Blue or Red to take the Yellow line for another +4 with only 2 territories and this helps minimize that.

Testing a +1 auto-deploy on "Attractions", rather than a +4 bonus for holding all four? Thoughts?
I think this is more interesting than a regular bonus, since the attractions are spread somewhat evenly and the boost is justified for those regions that have the tourist attraction. My only concern is whoever gets Beaverton has an easy advantage in taking SE as well. I'm just floating the idea now - its not set in stone.