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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/3/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:24 am

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ok, The big change to this map is he bonus structure, which runs on how many colonies are held rather than space taken up in a region. Personally, I think this is the route that the map will be taking as its the only one that seems feasible given the unique set up of the 13 American Colonies. The numbers are all tentative at the moment and I'm very open to suggestion. The graphics regarding the bonus key are a little untouched at the moment, but I'll be jazzing it up as the map progresses; I just wanted to get another update out there.

One major question I have is will the XML be able to support the bonus regions as they are depicted here? As far as I understand it won't be a problem, but having never done XML before I could be wrong.

Thoughts?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:58 am

If ya go this way may I suggest that you divide some of those 1 tert states.. You do have map room in Maryland - jersey - bunker hill..Even Mass bay. Cuz A good drop & 1st move can still walk away with it. (A few more terts would be good anyway)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:29 pm

Hmm... good point.

I added Fort Lee to New Jersey, Delamarva to Maryland and Castine to Mass. Bay.

Delaware seems like its going to be very difficult to hold with its 5 borders. Rhode Island is relatively easy to hold with only 2 borders and Conn. also slightly difficult with 4. New Hampshire is pretty easy with 2. Even so, if you landed all 4 colonies, you'd only get a bonus of 3 men with a total of 9 possible attack routes for your enemies.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:49 pm

NICE... I like it......... You still could have MASS split...... Ya got boston & bunker hill Already labeled in..... That would make R.I. bordered by 3 terts. (bostons the label for the ship but I spose you can work around that)........ I'm done..... Can't wait to play it.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:06 pm

You're killing me here Jefjef... I didn't want to do it cause Cape Cod looks a little smashed in there and then the words get confused with Boston and so on and so forth... but I did it. One of the benefits is that Rhode Island has another border to defend against.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:10 pm

.. :D you are a master game/map maker....... I'm only trying to help :( Now could you move that bunkerhill line to top right corner of R.I. ? hahahahahaha But seriously you could float the boston ship up a smidgeon to relieve conjestion if it seems too busy...... You left out bonus listing for 3 states.. was that your intent? You could make the 1st bonus avail after having 3 states.. WOW... battlefield for sure!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:28 pm

I think that it might be alright with the ship and all that. We'll see what others say about it, but I think it should be good. That is unless I change my mind later on down the line. But yeah, thanks for the help, I'm glad someone can keep up with the quick crits ont he map while I'm still in the mood to edit it.

But yeah, I left the holding 3 colonies out because I didn't want someone to land three of the single terr. colonies and and get something like 3-4 men. Still working out the specific numbers of it, but this is how the bonuses will be determined.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:00 pm

One last thought on this. (Yeah right) What about Shawnee tert connecting to N Georgia? It would make the map more fluid and Georgia more threatened. (Georgia is kinda a sheltered area) and S Carolina also has a ship connection to it. And I just don't see the 2 to 4 state bonus jump. With the additional terts it is for sure harder to land states on the drop. Could the bonus structure be a bit light? Maybe take into account the tert #s for each colony. Make the larger colonies worth more. Guess ya really need to do some simulated play. 5 Stars! Looks like your pretty well there!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:16 am

You make a good point on the Indian terr attack to Georgia as S Carolina already has a ship. I'll make the change and include it in the next update.

As for downplaying the southern bonus, much of the war did not take place in the South, not to say none, and I think the map should reflect this aspect. Say, if you did capture up to Virginia, defending at Baltimore, Appalachia and Viriginia capes, you'd have a bonus of 1 for colonies and 18 terrs held, so 6 men traditional deployment, at a total of 7 deploy. Then with easy aquisitions of Delaware and Maryland to bring the bonus up to 4 men. Right after is another great defense point of Philadelphia, Delaware and Virginia Capes which should land you the game at 5 bonus men plus 7 regular deployment (The defense at best putting up 10 men total).

Doing the same thing at Philie, Brooklyn Heights and Delaware you land 11 men but still have a long way to go, giving the South a chance to fight, but the advantage goes to the North (which were the more valuable territories anyway).

What I just noticed is that Philadelphia is going to be a hotly contested territory, as it should be as it was the capitol at the time.

So yeah, in summation, I think the South will be quite powerful given its bottleneck points and should yield many men given its size rather than colonial bonus. But the North will be the more hotly fought over areas, as it was in 1775-83
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby jefjef on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:23 am

Hello again, I. HELIX. A graphics thing. Could you maybe put a minute man & red coat on the map? Or even flags. Maybe have the bonus graph superimposed over them. :D.. Road Island deploy spot is in the sea & name in the state borders. Would it work if you flippy flopped em around?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:38 am

My first look at the map (my bad I know – it totally skipped from my eyes).

I've tried to read all the past posts just to keep in touch with the latest updates. Something might have missed me though.

Do you gain bonus by having groups of colonies right?
Let’s say: if you own Georgia and South Carolina you’ll have a bonus of 1 soldier.

I’m asking because in your previous post you said that someone owning the south up to Baltimore-Appalachia-Virginia Capes would have a bonus of 1 (in my math it should be 3 - Georgia + South Carolina + N Carolina + Virginia = 4 colonies) but I Probably got everything wrong..... :(

I like the visual style – straight and simple. Just one small remark – I’d do the artwork in the bonus legend to make it more coherent with the upper legend. It seems that graphically it’s a bit lost down there.

Grat work! - I love historic maps :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby CharruaWarrior on Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:01 pm

I like the idea that bonuses go by how many colonies you control. Holding Georgia will give you the same amount of armies as holding Delaware. Great map I'll be waiting to play it. My first comment by the way. :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:52 am

Kabanellas - Yeah, the bit witht he Batlimore ect i was just pointing out the bottleneck point on the map and speculating how it might work out. But the Bonus structure is correct, the bonus you receive is based on how many actual colonies you hold. Delaware is worth as much as Georgia, ect. Still working out the numbers and details, but that's the inten so far.

Thanks CharruaWarrior for commenting, I'm glad that the bonus structure is gaining support, I think it should be the way forward for this map.

Question to Foundry mods: What else do I need before this map hits the main foundry?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:16 am

Absolutely nothing, I've just hit a spate of burn-out. Go get 'em in the Foundry.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *Update 7/13/09*

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:31 am

Ok, got it right then :)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D]Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:53 pm

Ok great, my first post in the Main Foundry!

Basically I want to steer the discussion towards the gameplay aspect and then I will tackle the graphics.

As it stands at the moment:

39 Territories
Indian Territories start at 2 and revert to 2 after each round.
The bonus structure will be according to the number of colones held, however, the numbers and ratio need to be discussed.

Borders look good to me at them moment, however the tri-border at New York, Long Island and Fort Lee needs to be addressed.

There's a few bottle neck points but they give some advantage to a player that starts in the South, I think, and should be kept as is.

Any thoughts and crits on gameplay are appreciated.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:44 pm

37 terts + 2 killer neutrals. You may want to consider coding Rhode Island or better yet Conn. to always start as a Neutral. Gives you 36 terts for drops & reduces chance of bonus on the drop. I still like either adding bonus for 3 colonies or starting bonuses at 3 colonies held. Great work.. Looking forward to it. 5 stars for sure!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:21 pm

Ok.. game-play it is:

Let’s see, imo one starting in the North gets an advantage from someone starting in the South, and it seems to me that people will definitely tend to occupy the north regions.

The South will always be hard to secure. If I take Georgia and S Carolina I’ll be stuck with 3 borders even if I move up to Guildford – for an income of 1 troop...... pretty short, maybe. On the other side, in the middle, I could secure N. Carolina up to Baltimore and Delaware making an income of 3 troops for 1 border more (4)....

In the North, you can start from Massachusetts and fight your way down to Bunker Hill-Connecticut, establishing a perimeter with 3 borders (B.H. – Connecticut – Massachusetts) receiving an income of 3 troops – fairly good comparing with the south regions. The evolution will be fast from here. Securing Philly and Brooklyn Heights will be a flash. (5 troops for 3 borders)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:42 am

The balance seems pretty good, I can see starting at just about any point on the map and finding a way to gain and hold a 4 colony bonus. I have a bit of a concern about the New York colony. It is going to be a crossroads region moving from New England into the Mid-Atlantic and visa versa. Of all the colonies, New York will be the most difficult to gain control of and possibly add to a bonus. Perhaps a little bit of redrawing of borders to make New York a little easier to hold?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:54 am

...Concluding my analysis – I don’t think that it’s necessarily bad to have a slightly better position in a map. That’s part of life. :)
If players start fighting between themselves for better territories will only give space for some other guy to grow in the less appealing ones.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:50 am

As for coding RI and Conn. to start neutral... sounds like a good idea. I think maybe a starting neutral 2 would be good. Maybe start New Hampshire as a neutral as well... or add another terr. (seems like there might be room). That way no one lands the bonus but its not too hard to get it; you've got the option of attacking a neutral for the bonus or going for someone else's terr. I guess it depends on your favored strategy.

Obviously, like you guys have pointed out, the North is going to be the hotspot to hold. But I think you guys are saying that it won't be too easy to hold unless your opponent(s) has no idea what he's doing. Which i agree with. Assuming you do hold the north down to Baltimore or Phillie then you've pretty much got the game with your bonus deployment... but at the same time you hold most the terrs. on the map. So if it were any other similar map and you held this many terrs. the same result would happen.

I'm starting to wonder if I readjust the ship bonus there might be some smaller bonuses to get in the south. For example: Break it into two groups of two and reward holding two ships instead of four. Or simply reward holding two ships and leaving the connections the same.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Gameplay discussion

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:00 am

OK, just did a little work on this map and made some gameplay changes.

Here's what's changed:

Connection to Georgia instead of S. Carolina

Hold two ships for a bonus of two.

I removed the ship connection between Boston and Brooklyn Heights, which should make that bonus of two a little harder to get. At the same time, an easily attainable bonus is now in the South, plus it maintains the connection to the north keeping the advantage of holding the ships. Everyone's thoughts on the South getting an easier bonus are appreciated.

I'm pretty much sold on starting RI and Conn at a neutral 2.

New Hampshire has been divided into two territories, Coos and Exeter (Which is where I live in England! but Exeter in the US was important to the signing of the Declaration of Independence).

So yeah, not sure about pulling the connection between Boston and Brooklyn Heights... everyone's thoughts on that are appreciated.

One other possibility that I'm entertaining is that Each ship gives a bonus of 1 or upping the bonus to 3 for two ships... Thoughts?

Still haven't figured out what I'm going to do about the connection to Long Island... would dotted lines look too out of place? Would they even fit? I'm considering fudging it and moving the whole island a tad North so its a little more obvious that it connects to New York and not Fort Lee... or I could leave it and say Fort Lee, New York and Long Island all connect at a three way border. Do you guys assume this already when you look at the map? Maybe it doesn't need clarification...

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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:01 pm

I really don’t think that you should break that connection (Boston - B.H.) ... it makes perfect sense that all navy could connect each other, especially if you keep the bonus when owning pairs of ships. As for the ships bonus if you go for 1 per ship, I’d make them auto-deployable.

As for the connection between NY and Long Island, this is your doubt I guess, I pretty much instinctively thought that they connect... it seems pretty obvious that the borders touch each other, though they do it timidly. I wouldn’t go for the dots, let them remain for the navy.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby jefjef on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:39 pm

Hello Helix! Good to neutral those two & adding that tert. Ship connects look fine. No prob seeing them.. as far as ships how about a 1 bonus for holding the ship & the tert it connects too. (ship & it's landing point). This maps ready as far as I'm concerned. And with the 2 colonies neutral (I would code em as 3 strength) Ya should add the bonus for holding 3 colonies also. Also I'd leave all ships conncted.. It is a navy after all & boats float.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies [D] Update 7/24 Gameplay discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:51 am

How about 1 more ship(French) in between BH and VA Capes that breaks the British shipping up. The French Navy was involved in the war, and was involved in the decisive victory at Yorktown. 5 ships, 3 for a bonus. Have the French Navy not be connected to the land. Definitely reconnect Boston and BH.

Otherwise I think you're looking good, the neutrals on the single colonies will prevent someone dropping a bonus right off the bat. Only other thing I can think of might be to eliminate one of Georgia's territories, so there is only 3 territories.

Long Island could be misconstrued to connect to Fort Lee, but I didn't think that looking at it. I'd just scouch it to the north a bit to make sure it doesn't look like it connects to Fort Lee.

The only other peeve I have is Newark. Change the name back to Trenton, Newark is in North Jersey. And while Fort Lee is/was there to protect the Hudson and New York City on the New Jersey side of the river, I personally think you should go with a more recognizable name for North Jersey, say Princeton(battlefield) or Morristown. (worse than Valley Forge winter encampment - 1779/1780)
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