Greenland [Quenched]

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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby the.killing.44 on Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:59 pm

perchorin wrote:First off I want to say how much I love this map, it's already become one of my favorites. That said, I'm really unhappy with the recent change of starting with 11 territories instead of 10 in a one versus one game. Now there is too much of an advantage to going first, all you have to do is take a single territory and the game almost hinges on the second players first move, especially in no spoils games. I disagree with the earlier poster who said there were too many neutrals, it was perfect before in my honest opinion. Just hope you can give it some more thought, thanks!

Thanks for your feedback:

In what way do you feel 11 starting terts is worse than 10? If it was 12 I would understand because of the dropping number, but with 11 nothing changes except the number of territories themselves, not affecting the drop.

.44
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby perchorin on Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:25 am

the.killing.44 wrote:
perchorin wrote:First off I want to say how much I love this map, it's already become one of my favorites. That said, I'm really unhappy with the recent change of starting with 11 territories instead of 10 in a one versus one game. Now there is too much of an advantage to going first, all you have to do is take a single territory and the game almost hinges on the second players first move, especially in no spoils games. I disagree with the earlier poster who said there were too many neutrals, it was perfect before in my honest opinion. Just hope you can give it some more thought, thanks!

Thanks for your feedback:

In what way do you feel 11 starting terts is worse than 10? If it was 12 I would understand because of the dropping number, but with 11 nothing changes except the number of territories themselves, not affecting the drop.

.44

Yeah I don't think I explained my thought clearly. I was absolutely loving this map for 1:1 no spoils speed games, but since the change whoever goes first just has to take a single territory to have a 12 to 10 advantage. So the player who goes second must take an enemy territory on his first turn or else the game is essentially lost. The way it was before, regardless of what the starting player did his first turn short of completing a region bonus, the second player could follow his own game plan still rather than simply reacting to player one. Thus, I believe there was more strategy involved with ten starting terts and it's one of the main reasons I liked this map. It's entirely possible that I'm the only one who feels this way so feel free to ignore me if you like, but take a look at my map rank for Greenland if you want a good laugh...I won the first TEN games in a row on that map, then proceeded to lose the next 11 out of 14 ](*,) coinciding with this particular change :cry:
Anyway thanks for listening and again, great job overall!
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:39 am

Well...
A lot of maps have the standard 14 starting territories. Pretty much same story there, I think...
Do you also feel those would be better if you started with 13 territories?
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby perchorin on Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:49 am

saaimen wrote:Well...
A lot of maps have the standard 14 starting territories. Pretty much same story there, I think...
Do you also feel those would be better if you started with 13 territories?

I might. I wouldn't even bring it up though except for the fact that this one was originally 10 not 11 and it's still in Beta. Personally I think that only adds strength to my argument, because why be the same as a lot of other maps?
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby saaimen on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:56 am

I don't think it's TRYING to be the same as a lot of other maps. So that's not an issue, nor an argument.
It's up to the mapmakers, but IMHO 11 is fine.
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby iancanton on Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:50 pm

u could put up a poll asking whether each person ought to start with 10 or 11 regions. however, unless we have a clear majority one way or the other, i'm happy for u to rely on ur gut feel as to what is better.

ian. :)
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby perchorin on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:47 pm

iancanton wrote:u could put up a poll asking whether each person ought to start with 10 or 11 regions. however, unless we have a clear majority one way or the other, i'm happy for u to rely on ur gut feel as to what is better.

ian. :)

A poll is a good idea! I'm not even sure if that many other people care one way or another but I'd love to find out. Thanks for listening .44!
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Re: Greenland [Beta] - poll, 10 or 11 starting positions?

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:54 pm

I love the 11 spots. :)
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Re: Greenland [Beta] - poll, 10 or 11 starting positions?

Postby the.killing.44 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:59 pm

Personally I like 11 better, just for less neutrals, but I'll keep MO out of it. I'd love more input! :)

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Re: Greenland [Beta] - poll, 10 or 11 starting positions?

Postby Danyael on Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:36 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:Personally I like 11 better, just for less neutrals, but I'll keep MO out of it. I'd love more input! :)

.44

i concur
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Re: Greenland [Beta] - poll, 10 or 11 starting positions?

Postby oaktown on Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:54 am

When it comes to rolling dice and getting opening drops this is a game of luck. If you have better luck than your opponent, you are likely to win. A mapmaker can try to eliminate the conditions that lead to lucky starts, but once the game begins there's little we can do about it.

That said, I think that coding Peary Land to eliminate the possibility of somebody starting with a bonus is the right move. Once a 1v1 game begins player 1 will have to beat a 3 with a six to up his territories to 12, and player 2 will have to beat a 3 with a 6 to knock his opponent's territory count back down to 11. Both players have the same odds of success.

If that's the only concern about this map, I think we can stick a fork in it pretty soon and call it done.
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Re: Greenland [Beta] - poll, 10 or 11 starting positions?

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:51 pm

oaktown wrote:When it comes to rolling dice and getting opening drops this is a game of luck. If you have better luck than your opponent, you are likely to win. A mapmaker can try to eliminate the conditions that lead to lucky starts, but once the game begins there's little we can do about it.

That said, I think that coding Peary Land to eliminate the possibility of somebody starting with a bonus is the right move. Once a 1v1 game begins player 1 will have to beat a 3 with a six to up his territories to 12, and player 2 will have to beat a 3 with a 6 to knock his opponent's territory count back down to 11. Both players have the same odds of success.

If that's the only concern about this map, I think we can stick a fork in it pretty soon and call it done.

I gotta concur with everything you said. :)

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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby cjd411 on Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:16 pm

just wanted to say this is a great map... just as it is right now is perfect! thank you!
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby iancanton on Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:12 pm

Poll Results

How many starting positions would you like?

10 for each player... 12... 46%
11 for each player... 14... 54%

Total votes... 26
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Re: Greenland [Beta]

Postby superkeener on Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:19 am

AWESOME map, i really enjoy playing on it, especially with Fog on, it's makes it kinda creepy (but fun) imo
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