Flanders 1302V15[Beta] major changes! P19

[ender516]

You could also divide Oostervant as you have Rijks-Vlaanderen. Create four starting positions, each with two territories: one from Vier Ambachten, and one from either Oostervant or Rijks-Vlaanderen. That should smooth things out.

[DubWarrior]

<map>
<positions>
<position>
<territory>Zierikzee</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Axel</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Dowaai</territory>
</position>
<position>
<territory>Ronse</territory>
</position>
</positions>

Something like this,
sorry for my noob comments, but never did this before
thx for the patience

[ender516]

No, I meant this:

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
          <territory>Axel</territory>
          <territory>Sint Amands</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
          <territory>Hulst</territory>
          <territory>Ninove</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
          <territory>Middelburg</territory>
          <territory>Dowaai</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
          <territory>Zierikzee</territory>
          <territory>Ronse</territory>
   </position>
</positions>


The bonus regions are all divided, and I have tried to pair them so that each set is fair: Zierikzee is easy to defend with one border, but it is balanced by Ronse, with six borders (one of which starts neutral). I put these pairs together fairly quickly, so any suggestions about swaps are welcome. Just keep the Vier Ambachten regions spread out, one to each position.

[DubWarrior]

I've added them, all fine now?

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<map>
<positions>
 <position>
          <territory>Axel</territory>
          <territory>Sint Amands</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
          <territory>Hulst</territory>
          <territory>Ninove</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
          <territory>Middelburg</territory>
          <territory>Dowaai</territory>
   </position>
   <position>
          <territory>Zierikzee</territory>
          <territory>Ronse</territory>
   </position>
</positions>
<continent>
   <name>Rijks-Vlaanderen</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Ninove</territory>
      <territory>Ronse</territory>
      <territory>Aalst</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Vier Ambachten</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Axel</territory>
      <territory>Hulst</territory>
      <territory>Middelburg</territory>
      <territory>Zierikzee</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Brabant</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Brussel</territory>
      <territory>Mechelen</territory>
      <territory>Antwerpen</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Kroon-Vlaanderen</name>
   <bonus>5</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Beveren</territory>
      <territory>Lokeren</territory>
      <territory>Gent</territory>
      <territory>Eeklo</territory>
      <territory>Roeselare</territory>
      <territory>Damme</territory>
      <territory>Ieper</territory>
      <territory>Poperinge</territory>
      <territory>Ter Duinen</territory>
      <territory>Broekburg</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Kortrijk</name>
   <bonus>4</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Rijsel</territory>
      <territory>Orchies</territory>
      <territory>Kortrijk</territory>
      <territory>Groeninge</territory>
      <territory>Oudenaarde</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Artesie</name>
   <bonus>4</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Lens</territory>
      <territory>Bethune</territory>
      <territory>Terwaan</territory>
      <territory>Kassel</territory>
      <territory>Sint Omaars</territory>
      <territory>Duinkerke</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Oostervant</name>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Dowaai</territory>
      <territory>Sint Amands</territory>
      <territory>Doornik</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<continent>
   <name>Henegouwen</name>
   <bonus>3</bonus>
   <components>
      <territory>Bergen</territory>
      <territory>Valencijn</territory>
      <territory>Halle</territory>
      <territory>Ath</territory>
   </components>
</continent>
<territory>
   <name>Duinkerke</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Sint Omaars</border>
      <border>Kassel</border>
      <border>Broekburg</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>30</smallx>
      <smally>269</smally>
      <largex>36</largex>
      <largey>319</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Sint Omaars</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Duinkerke</border>
      <border>Kassel</border>
      <border>Terwaan</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>17</smallx>
      <smally>345</smally>
      <largex>23</largex>
      <largey>423</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Kassel</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Duinkerke</border>
      <border>Sint Omaars</border>
      <border>Terwaan</border>
      <border>Broekburg</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>73</smallx>
      <smally>310</smally>
      <largex>90</largex>
      <largey>364</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Terwaan</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Sint Omaars</border>
      <border>Kassel</border>
      <border>Broekburg</border>
      <border>Poperinge</border>
      <border>Bethune</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>77</smallx>
      <smally>384</smally>
      <largex>85</largex>
      <largey>463</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Bethune</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Terwaan</border>
      <border>Lens</border>
      <border>Arras</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>139</smallx>
      <smally>386</smally>
      <largex>169</largex>
      <largey>470</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Lens</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Bethune</border>
      <border>Rijsel</border>
      <border>Arras</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>206</smallx>
      <smally>383</smally>
      <largex>239</largex>
      <largey>448</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Arras</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Bethune</border>
      <border>Lens</border>
      <border>Rijsel</border>
      <border>Orchies</border>
      <border>Dowaai</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>231</smallx>
      <smally>445</smally>
      <largex>273</largex>
      <largey>524</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>5</neutral>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Broekburg</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Duinkerke</border>
      <border>Kassel</border>
      <border>Terwaan</border>
      <border>Poperinge</border>
      <border>Ter Duinen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>108</smallx>
      <smally>249</smally>
      <largex>132</largex>
      <largey>296</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Ter Duinen</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Broekburg</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>190</smallx>
      <smally>233</smally>
      <largex>227</largex>
      <largey>274</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Poperinge</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Terwaan</border>
      <border>Broekburg</border>
      <border>Ieper</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>187</smallx>
      <smally>306</smally>
      <largex>217</largex>
      <largey>366</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Rijsel</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Lens</border>
      <border>Arras</border>
      <border>Orchies</border>
      <border>Ieper</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>256</smallx>
      <smally>361</smally>
      <largex>303</largex>
      <largey>427</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Ieper</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Poperinge</border>
      <border>Roeselare</border>
      <border>Damme</border>
      <border>Rijsel</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>259</smallx>
      <smally>303</smally>
      <largex>306</largex>
      <largey>351</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>3</neutral>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Brugge</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Damme</border>
      <border>Roeselare</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>319</smallx>
      <smally>218</smally>
      <largex>376</largex>
      <largey>250</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>4</neutral>
   <bonus>2</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Roeselare</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ieper</border>
      <border>Damme</border>
      <border>Eeklo</border>
      <border>Kortrijk</border>
      <border>Brugge</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>327</smallx>
      <smally>281</smally>
      <largex>391</largex>
      <largey>322</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Eeklo</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Roeselare</border>
      <border>Gent</border>
      <border>Oudenaarde</border>
      <border>Lokeren</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>383</smallx>
      <smally>195</smally>
      <largex>458</largex>
      <largey>238</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Gent</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Eeklo</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>427</smallx>
      <smally>213</smally>
      <largex>504</largex>
      <largey>245</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>3</neutral>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Lokeren</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Eeklo</border>
      <border>Axel</border>
      <border>Hulst</border>
      <border>Beveren</border>
      <border>Aalst</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>481</smallx>
      <smally>209</smally>
      <largex>578</largex>
      <largey>245</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Beveren</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Lokeren</border>
      <border>Hulst</border>
      <border>Antwerpen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>549</smallx>
      <smally>171</smally>
      <largex>651</largex>
      <largey>205</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Damme</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ieper</border>
      <border>Roeselare</border>
      <border>Brugge</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>259</smallx>
      <smally>197</smally>
      <largex>308</largex>
      <largey>231</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Kortrijk</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Roeselare</border>
      <border>Groeninge</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>335</smallx>
      <smally>339</smally>
      <largex>397</largex>
      <largey>398</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>3</neutral>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Orchies</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Rijsel</border>
      <border>Arras</border>
      <border>Dowaai</border>
      <border>Groeninge</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>328</smallx>
      <smally>384</smally>
      <largex>390</largex>
      <largey>456</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Groeninge</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Kortrijk</border>
      <border>Orchies</border>
      <border>Oudenaarde</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>381</smallx>
      <smally>317</smally>
      <largex>461</largex>
      <largey>365</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Oudenaarde</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ronse</border>
      <border>Groeninge</border>
      <border>Eeklo</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>423</smallx>
      <smally>255</smally>
      <largex>501</largex>
      <largey>300</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Ninove</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ronse</border>
      <border>Aalst</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>482</smallx>
      <smally>254</smally>
      <largex>575</largex>
      <largey>299</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Aalst</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ninove</border>
      <border>Ronse</border>
      <border>Brussel</border>
      <border>Mechelen</border>
      <border>Lokeren</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>535</smallx>
      <smally>273</smally>
      <largex>634</largex>
      <largey>317</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>3</neutral>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Ronse</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ath</border>
      <border>Halle</border>
      <border>Brussel</border>
      <border>Aalst</border>
      <border>Ninove</border>
      <border>Oudenaarde</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>453</smallx>
      <smally>302</smally>
      <largex>528</largex>
      <largey>354</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Axel</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Lokeren</border>
      <border>Hulst</border>
      <border>Middelburg</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>466</smallx>
      <smally>153</smally>
      <largex>554</largex>
      <largey>179</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Hulst</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Axel</border>
      <border>Lokeren</border>
      <border>Beveren</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>512</smallx>
      <smally>143</smally>
      <largex>605</largex>
      <largey>168</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Middelburg</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Zierikzee</border>
      <border>Axel</border>
      <border>Antwerpen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>491</smallx>
      <smally>94</smally>
      <largex>589</largex>
      <largey>106</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Zierikzee</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Middelburg</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>537</smallx>
      <smally>56</smally>
      <largex>634</largex>
      <largey>62</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Antwerpen</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Beveren</border>
      <border>Mechelen</border>
      <border>Middelburg</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>593</smallx>
      <smally>137</smally>
      <largex>706</largex>
      <largey>160</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>3</neutral>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Mechelen</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Brussel</border>
      <border>Aalst</border>
      <border>Antwerpen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>598</smallx>
      <smally>225</smally>
      <largex>709</largex>
      <largey>267</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Brussel</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Halle</border>
      <border>Ronse</border>
      <border>Aalst</border>
      <border>Mechelen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>591</smallx>
      <smally>282</smally>
      <largex>698</largex>
      <largey>339</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Ath</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ronse</border>
      <border>Halle</border>
      <border>Doornik</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>430</smallx>
      <smally>347</smally>
      <largex>510</largex>
      <largey>408</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Halle</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Ath</border>
      <border>Brussel</border>
      <border>Ronse</border>
      <border>Doornik</border>
      <border>Bergen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>476</smallx>
      <smally>365</smally>
      <largex>559</largex>
      <largey>439</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Bergen</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Halle</border>
      <border>Doornik</border>
      <border>Valencijn</border>
      <border>Sint Amands</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>455</smallx>
      <smally>414</smally>
      <largex>537</largex>
      <largey>487</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Valencijn</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Bergen</border>
      <border>Sint Amands</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>436</smallx>
      <smally>448</smally>
      <largex>517</largex>
      <largey>530</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Doornik</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Sint Amands</border>
      <border>Bergen</border>
      <border>Halle</border>
      <border>Ath</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>407</smallx>
      <smally>412</smally>
      <largex>481</largex>
      <largey>483</largey>
   </coordinates>
   <neutral>3</neutral>
   <bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Sint Amands</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Dowaai</border>
      <border>Doornik</border>
      <border>Valencijn</border>
      <border>Bergen</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>382</smallx>
      <smally>436</smally>
      <largex>456</largex>
      <largey>519</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Dowaai</name>
   <borders>
      <border>Sint Amands</border>
      <border>Orchies</border>
      <border>Arras</border>
   </borders>
   <coordinates>
      <smallx>336</smallx>
      <smally>447</smally>
      <largex>398</largex>
      <largey>531</largey>
   </coordinates>
</territory>
</map>

http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987/xml17092010.xml

[MrBenn]

http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987/xml17092010.xml

Was it just the addition of starting positions that have been changed?

[DubWarrior]

http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987/xml17092010.xml

Was it just the addition of starting positions that have been changed?

Starting Positions and a +3 bonus for Henegouwen, as requested.

[MrBenn]

If the bonus has changed, then we'll need new map images too (unless I've missed them)... Could you post the most recent/final image and xml links in one post for me?

[DubWarrior]

Sorry to keep you waiting! didn't get a notification...

Last XML:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987/xml17092010.xml

Last Images:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987/BOTGS4S.tif
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987/BOTGS4L.tif

there you go

[MrBenn]

And the update has gone live

[Hopscotcher]

Very intricate piece of work here



Great in every format I've tried it on!

[DubWarrior]

everyone agreed with the bonus +3 for Henegouwen and the new startingpositions?
looks like a finished map to me, no?

[DubWarrior]

correction,
some things starts to irritate me.
- What about the neutrals on Arras and Brugge. I see too much games where those important places aren't occupied.
Are there too much neutral troops on it? I find the 5 neutrals pretty high too, especially in the beginning of the game.
- Lokeren is a crucial spot and too easy to hold. By holding Lokeren, one can secure 4 ambachten and Brabant, and so winning the game. I saw this strategy a few times, always with succes. What about moving the border of Eeklo to the right so it have access to 4 ambachten too?

[MrBenn]

correction,
some things starts to irritate me.
- What about the neutrals on Arras and Brugge. I see too much games where those important places aren't occupied.
Are there too much neutral troops on it? I find the 5 neutrals pretty high too, especially in the beginning of the game.
- Lokeren is a crucial spot and too easy to hold. By holding Lokeren, one can secure 4 ambachten and Brabant, and so winning the game. I saw this strategy a few times, always with succes. What about moving the border of Eeklo to the right so it have access to 4 ambachten too?

Well, I think at this stage it's up to you... I was about to give you the final push out of the Final Forge, but will wait and see what you decide to do.

Personally I would support dropping the neutral 5s to 4s, or possibly 3s... as you say, it's all about finding a balance between making it too easy and not worth it.

[pamoa]

if you want people to fight for Arras and Brugge put them at 3
if you want it more like a stronghold then 4
creating an Elko-Axel link will open more this north end
maybe more balanced
but maybe geographically less accurate
aren't those delta regions supposed to be swampy and less accessible?

[DubWarrior]

Changes:
-Arras & Brugge: both 3 neutrals (to get them more in the game, in all types and earlier. This is were the scenario is all about.)
- Eeklo borders Axel now (giving acces to the north of the map, 4 ambachten and Brabant, and lowering the importance of Lokeren.)

These are the new links
new XML
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//xml29102010.xml
new maps, TIFF formats
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//BOTGS5L.tif
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/1/27/2739987//BOTGS5S.tif

[MrBenn]

Updated files have been sent to lackattack

[MrBenn]

Updated files have been sent to lackattack

And they're live.

Let's see how things go now...

[DubWarrior]

Thanks, I'm a right: I still see a 5 neutral on Arras and a 4 neutral on Brugge,
instead of the changed 3 neutrals for both...

[MrBenn]

Thanks, I'm a right: I still see a 5 neutral on Arras and a 4 neutral on Brugge,
instead of the changed 3 neutrals for both...

The neutral values won;t change on existing games; only on new ones.

[ben79]

you should put more than 3 neutral on bruge and arras ... 3 is too easy for a +2 auto-deploy

[jefjef]

you should put more than 3 neutral on bruge and arras ... 3 is too easy for a +2 auto-deploy

I've never understood why Brugge is +2. As unaccessible as it is +1 is more than enough.

And why is Arras going to a 3 neutral?

[DubWarrior]

See pag. 19, replies by myself, MrBenn and Pamoa why Brugge and Arras have now a 3 neutral.
Brugge has a +2 because this is a historical map about a real conflict, in which Brugge played an important role.
Gameplay-wise this has been translated to the +2 auto-deploy for Arras and Brugge.

[ben79]

still too easy with a 3 neutral, 4 or 5 neutral would be much better for real

[pamoa]

it need to be easy and tempting
so the main fight will be for those

[Leehar]

I understand why it was moved down to 3 but I still don't think it's a smart idea. a person is able to take it easily, and once he controls it, control of the game becomes too easy, I understand why you want to make it come more into play, but just a 3 for a +2 seems way too small. If you look around at other maps, you'll find very few that are like it.
I just don't get why a normal neutral 3 can be worth +2, if I'm getting my point across. I think a 4 would be infinitely more preferable....