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Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 41/44 [Quenched]

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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby timogl on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:09 am

okay. that should probably be in the little legend, no? it just says own them.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:18 am

Any CC map that has an objective for victory works the same way: you have to be holding it at the start of your turn to win, just as you have to be holding all the regions of a zone at the start of your turn to receive the bonus. The debate about how explicitly this must be stated on each map simmers on...
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby timogl on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:42 am

makes sense.

(doesn't sound like very interesting fodder for a debate though.)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:53 am

It's not very interesting, but it comes up time and again. A mapmaker with a flair for language writes "Conquer the <<whatever>>" and then someone asked the same question as you did, but often less politely, and not so much with a question but with a cry of "foul!". Then it becomes an issue of how much do have to put on every map that is the same for every map? In this case, the word "Own" appears in the legend. It might be possible to replace that with "Hold", but I will leave it to Kabanellas and Raskholnikov to decide. (I'm the XML scribe, here.)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby pamoa on Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:15 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
Raskholnikov wrote:We should also deal with Moscow - the winter terts should be 2 neutral at the beginning, and Moscow itself 4. Now a player can end up with plus 7 on Moscow on the first turn. No one can even think of successfully dislodging him in the same round, and it confers a huge advantage ( in 1 v 1 its a game winning one).

This change would be therefore good for game play as well as historically accurate (it wasnt easy for N to take Moscow, as far as I remember...). If there is significant opposition to Moscow going to 4, I can relent on that as long as the winter terts all go to plus 2.


..from all the games that I've played in this map (and there were quite a lot), I've rarely seen people taking Moscow. I think that 3 is the perfect number, especially making part of an virtually unconquerable country as it is Russia in the map...

in 6 to 8 people foggy games it is worth going for it
lots of neutrals and battle with a capital
an no one can see it
good bonus zone to hide
De gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
Gules an open tower silver, crenellated three parts, topped by a apertured turret, crenellated two parts
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby timogl on Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:20 pm

ender516 wrote:It's not very interesting, but it comes up time and again. A mapmaker with a flair for language writes "Conquer the <<whatever>>" and then someone asked the same question as you did, but often less politely, and not so much with a question but with a cry of "foul!". Then it becomes an issue of how much do have to put on every map that is the same for every map? In this case, the word "Own" appears in the legend. It might be possible to replace that with "Hold", but I will leave it to Kabanellas and Raskholnikov to decide. (I'm the XML scribe, here.)


at any rate, i apologize for bringing this up again (i went back and glanced at page 53 i think). i should have realized you guys probably have answered this question many, many time. i reiterate it is a very fine map though.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:54 pm

timogl wrote:
ender516 wrote:It's not very interesting, but it comes up time and again. A mapmaker with a flair for language writes "Conquer the <<whatever>>" and then someone asked the same question as you did, but often less politely, and not so much with a question but with a cry of "foul!". Then it becomes an issue of how much do have to put on every map that is the same for every map? In this case, the word "Own" appears in the legend. It might be possible to replace that with "Hold", but I will leave it to Kabanellas and Raskholnikov to decide. (I'm the XML scribe, here.)


at any rate, i apologize for bringing this up again (i went back and glanced at page 53 i think). i should have realized you guys probably have answered this question many, many time. i reiterate it is a very fine map though.

No apology is necessary. I'm not sure it has been addressed for this particular map, but taken across the entire Map Foundry, it is a familiar comment. For this map, I think it is a fair comment. Until some sort of consensus is reached and a Map Foundry guideline is established, it will resurface.
I'm glad you like the map and I'm sure Kab and Rask are too.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby Army of GOD on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:02 pm

I still think the Ottoman Empire is a pretty low bonus, even without the extra territs.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby gertbomber on Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:23 pm

Hi,

I don't understand the rule : own 5 capitals to win the game. I did it, but the game just continues..:(

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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:42 pm

gertbomber wrote:Hi,

I don't understand the rule : own 5 capitals to win the game. I did it, but the game just continues..:(

Gertbomber

Like all objectives on CC maps, you must hold the objective until you start your next turn. I think revising the legend to use the word "Hold" instead of "Own" is under consideration right now.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:03 am

HAhahaha, so many people with that same "problem".
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby prime minister1 on Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:57 pm

game # 7573216. log shows on september 19th, 2010 team of prime minister1 and collins1916 held 4 capitols istanbul, london, paris, and madrid. on prime minister1's turn he recieved one troop auto-deploy on istanbul, and london, and manually deployed one each on paris and madrid, than proceeded to conquer berlin on that same turn. now when prime ministers next turn came. the game continued. is it that even though it is a teaam game only one player must cover the capitols?
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:04 pm

prime minister1 wrote:game # 7573216. log shows on september 19th, 2010 team of prime minister1 and collins1916 held 4 capitols istanbul, london, paris, and madrid. on prime minister1's turn he recieved one troop auto-deploy on istanbul, and london, and manually deployed one each on paris and madrid, than proceeded to conquer berlin on that same turn. now when prime ministers next turn came. the game continued. is it that even though it is a teaam game only one player must cover the capitols?

Yes; a single player must hold the objective at the start of their turn to win the game. ;-)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:25 pm

MrBenn wrote:
prime minister1 wrote:game # 7573216. log shows on september 19th, 2010 team of prime minister1 and collins1916 held 4 capitols istanbul, london, paris, and madrid. on prime minister1's turn he recieved one troop auto-deploy on istanbul, and london, and manually deployed one each on paris and madrid, than proceeded to conquer berlin on that same turn. now when prime ministers next turn came. the game continued. is it that even though it is a teaam game only one player must cover the capitols?

Yes; a single player must hold the objective at the start of their turn to win the game. ;-)

That is just like a bonus for a zone. One player must hold all the regions (territories) of a zone (continent) at the start of a turn to receive the troops. You can think of an objective as the ultimate bonus.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby joriki on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:03 am

Many thanks for this map; it's currently my favourite map. It has room for a number of different strategies, and I don't know of any other map where 1v1 games go back and forth for many turns with both players getting high bonuses as often.

I see people have already commented on the Kingdom of Naples. Naples starts out neutral, and the only (potential) non-neutrals bordering it are Rome and Sicily. The odds of one player in a foggy 1v1 game getting both Rome and Sicily in the drop are about 2 in 9; the odds of one player getting Sicily and the other not getting Rome in a sunny game are about 4 in 9; and in a team game with two teams, the odds of one of the teams getting both are even about 1 in 2. That makes for a very valuable bonus shielded by neutrals -- +2 for the Kingdom, +1 autodeploy on the capital, and, in a 1v1 game, usually +2 for battle sites -- a quick shielded +5 just by taking a single neutral 3. A 1v1 game where the player who goes first can take this shielded bonus right away (1 in 9 chance in fog, 2 in 9 chance in sun) is usually practically decided from the start. I think making this bonus less valuable and/or less shielded would be the single most important thing to change on this map to make it more balanced.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby jefjef on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:30 am

Kabanellas wrote:yup, Sweden surely needs to go +1 only


So does the Norway bonus.

I also feel that end of the road bonus England could be reduced to 2.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:29 pm

Keep in mind that the UK has no battle sites to boost your overall bonus the way that most other areas do.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby Army of GOD on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:20 pm

England should stay but Spain should go up to a 3. I was surprised the other day when I found out it was only a +2.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby The Fire Knight on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:04 pm

Love the map. It might eventually become my favorite map. However, some of the bonuses don't really make sense. Like france is worth a ton for its territories, russia and spain are worth little. But i just wanted to ask why borodino and smolensk are shown in the "russian winter color" but don't loose troops?
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby joriki on Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:37 am

The Fire Knight wrote:But i just wanted to ask why borodino and smolensk are shown in the "russian winter color" but don't loose troops?


They do -- you can see it e.g. in the log of your Game 7592890:

2010-09-23 22:16:50 - Mhoram got bonus of -2 troops added to Smolensk (Smolensk, August 1812)

Like all negative autodeploys, they don't go below 1, so staying at 1 doesn't mean they're not affected.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby The Fire Knight on Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:40 pm

joriki wrote:
The Fire Knight wrote:But i just wanted to ask why borodino and smolensk are shown in the "russian winter color" but don't loose troops?


They do -- you can see it e.g. in the log of your Game 7592890:

2010-09-23 22:16:50 - Mhoram got bonus of -2 troops added to Smolensk (Smolensk, August 1812)

Like all negative autodeploys, they don't go below 1, so staying at 1 doesn't mean they're not affected.


Ah, I see. I was confused. Thanks.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby Rodion on Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:35 pm

"L'Empire" - is that the definition of France + all dashed regions?

Anyhow, why is it mentioned?
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby jefjef on Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:12 pm

The Fire Knight wrote:Love the map. It might eventually become my favorite map. However, some of the bonuses don't really make sense. Like france is worth a ton for its territories, russia and spain are worth little.


You also need to take into account the Capital auto deploy and the value of the associated battle site bonuses when looking at the value of region bonuses. Spain and Russia are worth more than just the region value.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby ender516 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:32 am

Rodion wrote:"L'Empire" - is that the definition of France + all dashed regions?

Anyhow, why is it mentioned?

On this map, L'Émpire consists of the blue dashed regions: Piedmont, Rome, Illyria, Belgium, Holland, and Oldenburg. When you hold all of France (Brittany, Normandy, Burgundy, Paris, Aquitaine, Provence, and Corsica), you get a bonus of 5 troops for deployment. For each two regions of L'Émpire that you hold in addition to all of France, you receive another 1 troop for deployment.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 39/43 [Gp,Gr,XML,BETA]

Postby joriki on Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:51 am

ender516 wrote:
Rodion wrote:"L'Empire" - is that the definition of France + all dashed regions?

Anyhow, why is it mentioned?

On this map, L'Émpire consists of the blue dashed regions: Piedmont, Rome, Illyria, Belgium, Holland, and Oldenburg. When you hold all of France (Brittany, Normandy, Burgundy, Paris, Aquitaine, Provence, and Corsica), you get a bonus of 5 troops for deployment. For each two regions of L'Émpire that you hold in addition to all of France, you receive another 1 troop for deployment.


That doesn't really answer the question why it's mentioned :-) If you want to mention it so it has a name and isn't the only thing that's just called "dashed regions", I think it would make more sense to write something like "5 France + 1 per region of L'Empire (dashed)", i.e. identify it by its name like everything else and then explain that it's drawn dashed, rather than the other way around.

BTW, it's interesting that the small map in this case isn't just a downscaled version of the large map. Did the bonus names not work well on the small map? There are also some other differences, especially in details of the legend, including somewhat surprisingly that it says "+1 for every 2 dashed regions" on the large map and "+1 per 2 dashed regions" on the small map -- did you optimize the layout of the text separately for the two maps?
General joriki
 
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