Conquer Club

joriki wrote:

ender516 wrote:

Rodion wrote:"L'Empire" - is that the definition of France + all dashed regions?

Anyhow, why is it mentioned?

On this map, L'Émpire consists of the blue dashed regions: Piedmont, Rome, Illyria, Belgium, Holland, and Oldenburg. When you hold all of France (Brittany, Normandy, Burgundy, Paris, Aquitaine, Provence, and Corsica), you get a bonus of 5 troops for deployment. For each two regions of L'Émpire that you hold in addition to all of France, you receive another 1 troop for deployment.

That doesn't really answer the question why it's mentioned If you want to mention it so it has a name and isn't the only thing that's just called "dashed regions", I think it would make more sense to write something like "5 France + 1 per region of L'Empire (dashed)", i.e. identify it by its name like everything else and then explain that it's drawn dashed, rather than the other way around.

BTW, it's interesting that the small map in this case isn't just a downscaled version of the large map. Did the bonus names not work well on the small map? There are also some other differences, especially in details of the legend, including somewhat surprisingly that it says "+1 for every 2 dashed regions" on the large map and "+1 per 2 dashed regions" on the small map -- did you optimize the layout of the text separately for the two maps?

Pretty much the point I was trying to make.

It's not the only map that has differences on the small and large maps...

joriki wrote:BTW, it's interesting that the small map in this case isn't just a downscaled version of the large map. Did the bonus names not work well on the small map? There are also some other differences, especially in details of the legend, including somewhat surprisingly that it says "+1 for every 2 dashed regions" on the large map and "+1 per 2 dashed regions" on the small map -- did you optimize the layout of the text separately for the two maps?

indeed Joriki

The small map was almost a whole different project with a life of its own. We took a lot of time optimizing all the info and making it fit to that smaller scale while looking appealing, comprehensive and informative.

.....I had some nervous breakdowns, spent some days on a couple of sanatoriums and I'm still running on pills on that account

joriki wrote:..I think it would make more sense to write something like "5 France + 1 per region of L'Empire (dashed)", i.e. identify it by its name like everything else and then explain that it's drawn dashed, rather than the other way around.

I'm afraid that wouldn't be accurate as well. L'Empire is France (and its original borders prior to Napoleon) + the regions conquered by Napoleon which were integrated in the the French Empire. So, that's to say that you get extra bonus when you have France (original France) and any 2 of the regions that were later added to the empire.

In this perspective that legend alignment seems to make more sense:

5 France + 1 for every 2 dashed regions - (all combined will form L'Empire)

Kabanellas wrote:

joriki wrote:..I think it would make more sense to write something like "5 France + 1 per region of L'Empire (dashed)", i.e. identify it by its name like everything else and then explain that it's drawn dashed, rather than the other way around.

I'm afraid that wouldn't be accurate as well. L'Empire is France (and its original borders prior to Napoleon) + the regions conquered by Napoleon which were integrated in the the French Empire. So, that's to say that you get extra bonus when you have France (original France) and any 2 of the regions that were later added to the empire.

In this perspective that legend alignment seems to make more sense:

5 France + 1 for every 2 dashed regions - (all combined will form L'Empire)

The thing is, if you remove "L'Empire" from the legends, the game is not going to change at all, since "France 5 + 1 per 2 dashed regions" will stand. That means that getting "L'Empire" will net you a bonus of 8 (5 + 6/2). Now, since you actually mentioned the words "L'Empire" (which, as I said, didn't need to be mentioned), shouldn't you tweak something (anything!) just to justify it's introduction? Say, rule continues 5 + 1 per 2, but if you actually manage to get it entirely you get 9 instead of 8?

I know I'm being picky, but the way I see it it's like you writing legends for the classic map saying "N. America 5, S. America 2, Both Americas 7". The "Both Americas 7" part would be completely redundant, just like "L'Empire" here.

That said, I'm loving the map. I must confess it took me some minutes looking at it until I felt I understood the gameplay with all its overlapping bonuses, but I'm really enjoying it now as one of my favorite maps.

I have a game going on this lovely map at the moment. It seems to be playing well, but I have a big problem with the legend. I know that we went over this before, but I think that I need to speak up one last time on the matter. It is hard enough trying to match up the colors, but then there is that eye-blurring background to also deal with. If you were to fix this one thing, I believe that you will have a winner here.

I think the distinction between France (what is often called Metropolitan France) and L'Empire is as clear and necessary as the distinction typically made elsewhere between Britain and the British Empire. Why do we have to justify "introducing" a name? We didn't invent it. And just because we give a name to the dashed regions is no reason to alter the gameplay with a balloon bonus.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with the legend as it stands, but if there is a real groundswell of objections, would it be satisfactory to change it to read as follows?

* 5 France +1 per 2 * dashed regions of L'Empire

where the *s represent the icons.

ender516 wrote:I think the distinction between France (what is often called Metropolitan France) and L'Empire is as clear and necessary as the distinction typically made elsewhere between Britain and the British Empire. Why do we have to justify "introducing" a name? We didn't invent it. And just because we give a name to the dashed regions is no reason to alter the gameplay with a balloon bonus.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with the legend as it stands, but if there is a real groundswell of objections, would it be satisfactory to change it to read as follows?

* 5 France +1 per 2 * dashed regions of L'Empire

where the *s represent the icons.

I think that'd be satisfactory.

I could do that

Here we go. Changed the legend according to that last suggestion.

Also changed the onus structure - applying what has been discussed in the last weeks:

-Kingdoms of Naples, Sweden and Denmark bonuses all lowered to 1.
-United Kingdom lowered from 3 to 2
-made a connection between Naples and Bosnia

Kabanellas wrote:Here we go. Changed the legend according to that last suggestion.

Seems I'm a bit too late in writing this, but I hope you can still take it into account: I think the icon should go either after the "2" or preferably before "L'Empire". (In the latter case, the only change to how it was before would be the addition of "of".)

Having the icon before the "2" has two disadvantages. First, the icon doesn't indicate how 2 dashed regions are coloured, but how all dashed regions are coloured, so it makes more sense to have it in front of "dashed regions" than in front of "2 dashed regions". Second, all other icons are followed by a number indicating the bonus, so a superficial reading of "<icon> 2 dashed regions of L'Empire" in analogy to all the other icons (and not looking at the preceding text) could lead to people thinking that the dashed regions of L'Empire give a bonus of 2.

joriki wrote:Seems I'm a bit too late in writing this, but I hope you can still take it into account: I think the icon should go either after the "2" or preferably before "L'Empire". (In the latter case, the only change to how it was before would be the addition of "of".)

I think it makes sense, I'll put it before L'Empire

Wow, the naples - bosnia connection is a huge change. Didn't even see the discussion on it, now naples may be underpowered at 1.

In any case, my respect and enjoyment for this map grows every time I play it. A masterpiece.

Naples-Bosnia aye..
Jesus, I'm glad I dropped by.. I'm in Italy in two games on the map..
Doesn't seem to have gone live yet, I hope I get to fort before it does...
First time I've been screwed by a BETA

It won't happen until I update the XML and MrBenn forwards the new files for upload by lackattack. The XML update might be done in the next twelve hours, but the time for the rest of the procedure is anybody's guess.

Kabanellas wrote:

joriki wrote:Seems I'm a bit too late in writing this, but I hope you can still take it into account: I think the icon should go either after the "2" or preferably before "L'Empire". (In the latter case, the only change to how it was before would be the addition of "of".)

I think it makes sense, I'll put it before L'Empire

You know, when we were all going around on this, I thought, "Maybe it's just the word 'of' that we need to add." I took it as implied, but maybe that's all it needed.

Small remark: Saxony is on the map abbreviated to 'Sx', but in the code it looks like to be abbreviated to 'Sw', which of course is Switserland

danryan wrote:Wow, the naples - bosnia connection is a huge change. Didn't even see the discussion on it, now naples may be underpowered at 1.

In any case, my respect and enjoyment for this map grows every time I play it. A masterpiece.

Glad to see that it is growing inside you Dan, despite you being initially somewhat reluctant about it

...as for Naples, remember that it has a 1 auto-deploy. So you could consider a 2 bonus, or at least 1,5.

Maybe it has to do with me winning more on it lately.

And yes, the autodeploy is nice, without a doubt.

Capitino wrote:Small remark: Saxony is on the map abbreviated to 'Sx', but in the code it looks like to be abbreviated to 'Sw', which of course is Switserland

Yes, thanks, this has been noted before, and I will include this fix along with the new bonus structure.

EDIT: Here is the updated XML:

NapoleonicEurope.1.12.xml

Is everyone ok with these changes to the bonus structure plus the addition of the Naples Bosnia link ?

Kabanellas wrote:Here we go. Changed the legend according to that last suggestion.

Also changed the bonus structure - applying what has been discussed in the last weeks:

-Kingdoms of Naples, Sweden and Denmark bonuses all lowered to 1.
-United Kingdom lowered from 3 to 2
-made a connection between Naples and Bosnia

Click image to enlarge.

Game 7666658
(yeh, i know, it's foggy, but the game will be soon over)

i've got prussia. it's noticed in my bonus.
but i also have warsaw, and no bonus for the couple prussia + warsaw (or i'm blind)

is the bonus still remain in the release, or is the bonus forgotten in the xml ?

the bonus is noticed in this xml http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/11/9/2644838/NapoleonicEurope.1.12.xml
but i don't know if it's the 'official' xml

Qyu, I've read the log and I haven't seen the 3 troop bonus that you should be receiving for holding Prussia.... are you sure you hold it?

yes, but i just take it in my last turn (with warsaw). I noticed that bob mentioned it (even in the 'Continents Overview', in the 'Statistics' and in the text map). He mentioned Poland too.
i see in the continent overview the bonus 'Saxony and Hessen w/ Prussia [1]' (i don't have it). But nowhere the bonus 'Warsaw w/ Prussia' who should be, if the official XML is the same as the 'NapoleonicEurope.1.12.xml' between 'Prussia [3]' bonus and 'Saxony and Hessen w/ Prussia [1]'

i could ask other mate don't finish the game, so we'll see in my next turn if i have the bonus


edit :
i think i understand. In the xml, it's said that 'Poland' bonus override 'Warsaw w/ Prussia' bonus. And since it's override, Bob won't mentioned it.
But i see this rule nowhere in the map explanation.


edit 2 : in Bob extended text map, the ''Warsaw w/ Prussia' is here.

Wrong alert about the xml, but maybe it could be useful it's noticed in the map explanation

certainly an interesting map, noticed the Saxony thing has been mentioned.
my only complaint is on trying recognize all the bonuses. the way the map is colored is just a tad confusing. hell in the game (7702380) I'm in. as far as I can tell I have all of france and yet not the bonus.
oh and and also the Orient part had me a little confused. larger map it just say Orient under Egypt. then I was told to read underneath it. that time I was in the smaller map and it said Egypt + Palestine. so that was a bit confusing as well