Conquer Club

yes the points would come in bursts but you could still have a good idea if a clan has been competitive over a long period or if all their points were slumped together.
Another way would be to give the score as a fraction (xx points/xx potential points) but I think that train has left the station because that would mean going over again to see who took part in the events.

Any list that doesn't include the Double Rainbow Society as 1a or 1b is de facto wrong.

ZaBeast wrote:yes the points would come in bursts but you could still have a good idea if a clan has been competitive over a long period or if all their points were slumped together.
Another way would be to give the score as a fraction (xx points/xx potential points) but I think that train has left the station because that would mean going over again to see who took part in the events.

I wouldn’t say left the station. Just might take awhile before I get bored again.

IcePack wrote:

betiko wrote:Honestly, I can hardly see how fall and foed could be better ranked than lhdd with all due respect to both clans... mostly foed.
I mean both fall and lhdd have won a cc cup and a premier division, but not foed... 3 cc finals for fall 1 win, 2 cc finals for lhdd 1 win, 1 cc final for foed no win.
Also, no clan has won as much diversity of clan events as we did, including every major and mid tier event involving 10+ clans.

What you did sounds like a lot of work, but not really sure how you chose your parameters. In my opinion, we should be #3 but I'm tooting my own flute

Not saying right or wrong but since lunch was boring at work, I did a better direct comparison (look at the tab “direct comparison”) this provides results based breakdown for the 3 clans mentioned (FALL/FOED/LHDD).

It provides better details. Looks like FALL has more success in the majors overall, FOED has lots more success in the minors than the other two, but LHDD has more high level success when it does score.

Again, lots of little interesting things show when broken down. Combined FOED has more scoring opportunities, FALL close behind, with LHDD last but again when you do score it’s very well.

Kinda meets the eye test, you guys have highs and lows that I mentioned. When you’re on it you are very hard to beat, but also your low points are lower than the other clans in comparison. FOEDs just produced lots of results over a sustained period, and FALL has kept up ok in most events but has more top 3’s and such in big events.

well if your ranking takes "competition attendance" that much into consideration (for example, we dropped out of clan league twice so when we got back in it we had to start twice from second division, not that we actually got relegated by playing), well then how come some dead clans are so high? they've missed a lot.


here is what all 3 have won:

LHDD:
1 conqueror's cup
1 clan league division 1
1 random league
1 random cup
1 clan league division 2
1 newcommer's cup
1 conquer clue
1 assassin clan challenge

FALL:
1 conqueror's cup
1 clan league division 1
1 poly challenge

FOED:
1 clan league division 1
2 random leagues
1 mini cup
1 1v1 challenge

Honestly, I wouldn't change our trophies with any of the other 2 clans

overall win rates (wars; games):
LHDD: 75%; 57,7%
FALL: 70,3%; 55,2%
FOED: 65,6%; 55,4%

head to head matchups:
LHDD vs FALL: 2-1 (94-65)
LHDD vs FOED: 4-1 (151-118)
FALL vs FOED: 2-1 (77-68)

Longest period of time holding the #1 spot.... don't know where to look for that for foed and fall. but we're there for a few more month for sure and holding it since 6 month

TLDR: it makes no sense that you could consider LHDD behind FALL and FOED and your criterias can be discussed

betiko wrote:well if your ranking takes "competition attendance" that much into consideration (for example, we dropped out of clan league twice so when we got back in it we had to start twice from second division, not that we actually got relegated by playing), well then how come some dead clans are so high? they've missed a lot.[/quite]

I don’t consider competition “attendance”, not sure if I said that or where you got that impression. Simply signing up for an event doesn’t earn points. Dead clans earn the points while their around and the points stay once they’re gone. So any points that are earned stay, not a decay or anything like that just an overall earnings report so to speak.

You note winning CL 2 Div, the way this is scored that hurts you. Weaker / smaller competitions don’t earn as many points as big events, or if more prone to luck might be slightly lower etc.

betiko wrote:here is what all 3 have won:

LHDD:
1 conqueror's cup
1 clan league division 1
1 random league
1 random cup
1 clan league division 2
1 newcommer's cup
1 conquer clue
1 assassin clan challenge

FALL:
1 conqueror's cup
1 clan league division 1
1 poly challenge

FOED:
1 clan league division 1
2 random leagues
1 mini cup
1 1v1 challenge

Honestly, I wouldn't change our trophies with any of the other 2 clans

Again, I don’t just score titles. How many other top 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 etc finishes does each clan have? Those also get points. So you can win and get 10 points, but if you never do anything again you still might be below a clan who gets Top 4 every year and never won. And as I said, quality of competition, size of event, etc all those impacted how many points are given for various events.

So if it’s a bracket of 8 that draws weaker competition it’s not scored the same as something that draws 18-32 and every year the top 10 participates in etc.

betiko wrote:overall win rates (wars; games):
LHDD: 75%; 57,7%
FALL: 70,3%; 55,2%
FOED: 65,6%; 55,4%

head to head matchups:
LHDD vs FALL: 2-1 (94-65)
LHDD vs FOED: 4-1 (151-118)
FALL vs FOED: 2-1 (77-68)

This isn’t really considered within my scores but interesting, which events did you include / exclude in this? But again, this is better left to F400 etc to score vs what I’m doing here.

betiko wrote:Longest period of time holding the #1 spot.... don't know where to look for that for foed and fall. but we're there for a few more month for sure and holding it since 6 month

FALL held #1 for nearly all of 2016, don’t recall exactly how long but 9-11 months +/-. But again, not really measured in this score. Leave that to the rankings that do that better it’s not what evaluating here. It’s long term success in events with events score weighted by the competition etc. and stuff I mentioned earlier.

But also why I did the extra comparison to look deeper at the three clans and more breakdown that info I had

Perhaps there should be more of a drop off between places like F1?

rockfist wrote:Perhaps there should be more of a drop off between places like F1?

Perhaps yeah, I can look at adjusting F1 position scores. Again it was more a fun thought excersize to look at it a different way / not just opinions and titles and consider overall impacts, and less of a long term serious undertaking. Just meant to provoke thought and debate now that some of the earlier questions have been answered and we’ve had 10+ years of clans where clans might land considering a larger field of data and results

Seriously... you consider finishing 4 times 4th comparable to finishing 1st once?
At the end you only remember the winners. No one cares about 4th.
You can play with numbers all you want, lhdd has acheived more than fall as of right now.

betiko wrote:Seriously... you consider finishing 4 times 4th comparable to finishing 1st once?
At the end you only remember the winners. No one cares about 4th.
You can play with numbers all you want, lhdd has acheived more than fall as of right now.

Idk why you’re getting so defensive. I thought it would be interesting to see what a points system would look like, created the system, and then scored. I also said when I posted I wasn’t sure whether or not I agreed with it or not, and expressed surprise that LHDD wasn’t higher / closer.

Regarding your question, I’m not looking to see who has the most titles with this excersize. I also said that up front, trophy’s are easy to look at and compile. It’s looking at the broader picture of “top 10 clans of all time”. That includes top 2, 3, 4 finishes etc not just titles. Even rockfist mentioned some sports teams who might win the title twixe but suck the rest of the years, vs teams that win once and do well every year. Idk what my stance is. But yeah, top 2’s and 3’s and 4’s etc also earn you points towards “best clan of all time” not just titles, which is why I included those too.

I’m not sure how winning CL 2nd Div should be somehow more respected then getting 2nd or Top 4 in the CL PD, I mean. Say you won’t it all you want but imo it doesn’t move the needle much towards earning you “top 10 clan of all time”. Your most recent dip into 2nd division you didn’t even win, you came 2nd? There’s lots of ways to break it down, but some of those listed achievements aren’t really all that impressive compared to others. Which is why you still earn points, but not the same. You won it and can’t take that away but in the grand scheme of things idk of many top 10 clans of all time that think winning 2nd Div title or such as all that impressive.

If you ask people what (mainly) encompasses "clan life" they would say Cup, League, and possibly Random League mainly. If you like lists, heres a couple for you to compare:

Top 2 Finishes in the Two Major Events (Cup and CL)
FALL 5
LHDD 3
FOED 2

Expand that to Top 4 in Cup and Top 3 in League:
FALL 7
LHDD 6
FOED 4

Add in Random League Top 3 Finishes:
FALL 11
FOED 8
LHDD 7

betiko wrote:Longest period of time holding the #1 spot.... don't know where to look for that for foed and fall. but we're there for a few more month for sure and holding it since 6 month

Total number of months being ranked in Top 1
1. TOFU 50
2. S&M 38
3. TOP 13
4. FALL 10
5. THOTA 8
6. LHDD 4
7. ACE 3
8. EMP 1

3a. Total number of consecutive months being ranked in Top 1
1. S&M 17
2. TOFU 12
3. TOFU 11
4. FALL 10
5. S&M 10
6. TOFU 8
7. TOFU 8
8. TOP 7
9. THOTA 7
10. LHDD 4*

betiko wrote:TLDR: it makes no sense that you could consider LHDD behind FALL and FOED and your criterias can be discussed

IcePack did not say that LHDD was behind FALL and FOED.
He defined some criteria and made a ranking out of it.
After calculation LHDD does appear behind FALL and FOED in this ranking. But it does not mean LHDD is behind FALL and FOED, nor that IcePack is thinking it.

It's just an interesting gathering of data/stats.

And yeah for sure we are losing points because we didn't join 1st DIV 2 years ago scoring 0, then had to join 2nd div, scoring 1 point.
That's why we're low here, but it doesn't mean much. It's just one ranking.

I think you're putting too much meaning into IcePack post. He was just sharing data.


Anyway, we'll win the Conquer Cup again this year, and for another 3 years in a row, then it'll be clear that we're the all time best

Donelladan wrote:

betiko wrote:TLDR: it makes no sense that you could consider LHDD behind FALL and FOED and your criterias can be discussed

IcePack did not say that LHDD was behind FALL and FOED.
He defined some criteria and made a ranking out of it.
After calculation LHDD does appear behind FALL and FOED in this ranking. But it does not mean LHDD is behind FALL and FOED, nor that IcePack is thinking it.

It's just an interesting gathering of data/stats.

And yeah for sure we are losing points because we didn't join 1st DIV 2 years ago scoring 0, then had to join 2nd div, scoring 1 point.
That's why we're low here, but it doesn't mean much. It's just one ranking.

I think you're putting too much meaning into IcePack post. He was just sharing data.


Anyway, we'll win the Conquer Cup again this year, and for another 3 years in a row, then it'll be clear that we're the all time best

Yeah It was an interesting concept that I thought I would try out, spent a lunch putting together the criteria and an evening collecting the info and sharing it. Sort of a “this might be interesting I wonder how it would shake out?” Type thing. Tried to establish criteria for it before digging into anything, to create a unbiased / non opinionated approach.

Honestly if I had to rank based on my own personal opinion, I would probably say:
Tofu
S&M
LHDD / FALL

I think your peaks are higher, your lows are lower, and recency bias / head to head probably give the edge to LHDD and consider us small underdogs. But I would say we are more consistently up there in the main competitions, so close enough that I would rank us a tie (future events might break that).

I feel LHDD is as strong as it’s ever been currently, and feel FALL is improved even upon our 2015-2018 high point so moving forward should be a very interesting next year

In six wars contested we are 177-174 in games vs S&M and in five league seasons played against them we are 39-41. But (and this is a very important but) they have a significant edge in Cups and Leagues won so they are the best IMO, but yeah I do think its close. If you count the large penalty in CC1 its not as close though, but lets not go there.

Interestingly enough we have a losing record vs FOED (that we will reverse this year) between league and wars of 90-94.

rockfist wrote:In six wars contested we are 177-174 in games vs S&M and in five league seasons played against them we are 39-41. But (and this is a very important but) they have a significant edge in Cups and Leagues won so they are the best IMO, but yeah I do think its close. If you count the large penalty in CC1 its not as close though, but lets not go there.

Interestingly enough we have a losing record vs FOED (that we will reverse this year) between league and wars of 90-94.

Interesting, idk why but generally I view TOFU as the better clan. Maybe again it’s recency bias.

I did check, the head to head betiko posted was just cup games. But they still have the edge (but the gap is significantly closer) when considering all games.

full strength tofu beats full strength s&m (or kort) every day

Icepack,

I think because recently you've been much more competitive with S&M in League play than you have with us, although the game records are similar, you've managed to win or tie more matches with S&M than with us. You are 58-58 in games and 1-1 in wars with S&M and 67-87 in league play...but they won by big margins versus you early and won matches early where its been balanced lately. You are 52-69 in games and 1-1 in wars versus us and 34-46 in league play, but we've had the better of you lately in league (which is odd because we don't perform as well in league as we do in cup...we have losing records against FOED, LHDD, and S&M in League, but not by huge margins).

iAmCaffeine wrote:full strength tofu beats full strength s&m (or kort) every day

Easy for you to say...you don't have to play it...its an epic struggle every time, but that makes it fun.

The best FALL would beat the best LHDD.

Keefie wrote:The best FALL would beat the best LHDD.

Is it just trolling or is it a serious comment ?

I would say the best FALL was when they won their CC cup title. That year we had a war that they won 31 to 30. I think 31 to 30 means that we were equal at the time.

When was FALL the best for you ?

Donelladan wrote:

Keefie wrote:The best FALL would beat the best LHDD.

Is it just trolling or is it a serious comment ?

I would say the best FALL was when they won their CC cup title. That year we had a war that they won 31 to 30. I think 31 to 30 means that we were equal at the time.

When was FALL the best for you ?

I’d say right now we are rivaling where we were in CC5 internally from my perspective.

CL11 we went 10-6 vs LHDD (7-1, 3-5 respectively). As more people get their legs back from returning / new guys start gelling I think it’ll only get better from here.

I thought Fallen peaked just after they won the CC5 cup, but then fell off by the end of that year. I felt like during CC5 we were better but didn't get any luck and weren't prepared for their prevalence of stack and blast maps. During CL that year after they won the cup I felt they were better than us, they didn't catch us by surprise with anything at that time, they just beat us. That's just my perspective.

rockfist wrote:

iAmCaffeine wrote:full strength tofu beats full strength s&m (or kort) every day

Easy for you to say...you don't have to play it...its an epic struggle every time, but that makes it fun.

doesn't mean it isn't true

Keefie wrote:The best FALL would beat the best LHDD.

doubt

iAmCaffeine wrote:

Keefie wrote:The best FALL would beat the best LHDD.

doubt

I mean I would think they are near peak having just won the cup.
Cup was mid Nov to Mid Feb
CL FALL vs LHDD was dec-feb and combined was 10-6

Unless them winning their first Cup somehow isn’t them being their best?

We were definitely not at our peak during the CL.
No one was focused on it in our clan. We joined the 1st div only not to lose our spot.
So I wouldn't say that you beating us 10-6 in the CL shine any light on who's the best.

Donelladan wrote:We were definitely not at our peak during the CL.
No one was focused on it in our clan. We joined the 1st div only not to lose our spot.
So I wouldn't say that you beating us 10-6 in the CL shine any light on who's the best.

The timeline matches up to when you peaked for cup. If we both make it to finals in Cup I guess we will find out for sure it’s the next potential meeting of the clans.

Betiko was using head to head results to argue whose best. I’m saying your peak was during your cup run and we beat LHDD during that period. Now if you wanna start adding other factors / excuses to explain away stuff then perhaps the head to head results he posted earlier aren’t really indicative of anything important either when you dig into the details