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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby Dako on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:18 am

IcePack, what about highest ever score per rank? Same as we have for points on our profile pages. Can you pull that data?
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:22 am

Dako wrote:IcePack, what about highest ever score per rank? Same as we have for points on our profile pages. Can you pull that data?


I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify?
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby Dako on Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:05 am

Image

The same but for clans.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby Arama86n on Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:50 am

IcePack wrote:Long story short...I started re reading the discussion / arguments about the top 10 rankings of all time, because well...thats the kind of thing I do when I'm bored. 8-[

JPlo64 wrote:Is it possible to do a historical clan ranking with the F400 system?


This was asked way back in April 2015. It was a lot of work, but I finally got around to creating a second database and reworking every clan war / league result to count as an "active" system with no decay.

Anyway, its an interesting (and probably controversial) ranking but if I count every war since the WORT vs CWC 17-9 on 01/02/07 to the present (well, until Octobers ranking because I dont have all of October results input) then this is what the rankings spit out...

Lets call this - F400 Historical: (117 Clans Listed)
1 TOFU 1325
2 TOP 1323
3 S&M 1291
4 THOTA 1285
5 FALL 1230
6 EMP 1215
7 AOC 1212
8 TSM 1207
9 ACE 1206
10 PACK 1188
11 IA 1177
12 LHDD 1159
13 LOW 1143
14 FOED 1129
15 DPLL 1120
16 OSA 1105


wow, great work.
A bit controversial (for numerous reasons) yes, but still interesting.
And of course satisfying as a member of TOFU ;)

PS: I have NO recollection of "DPLL" at all :-s :shock:
Whoever you were, well done on making t-16 all time though.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby donche64 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:37 am

Only 12th... :( We'll have to keep on working hard then!!
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You have been awarded the medal "Clan Achievement"

For being named MVP of the Premier Division of [CL7] Clan League VII

...thus being better than Mishalex!
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby betiko on Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:01 am

donche64 wrote:Only 12th... :( We'll have to keep on working hard then!!


i don't really think that ranking can be relevant... 90% of the people here, me included have never heard of DPLL.
A clan like LI is unquestionably the worse clan of all times, yet there are a few behind them, just because they didn't play enough wars to confirm how much below terrible they were, i doubt they could've scored more than a win against average clans.
TOP's biggest accomplishment is beating FOED and that ranks them as the second best clan of all times... go figure. A clan like S&M has won 3 CC cups and 2 first division titles; I doubt anyone will ever do as good, and yet they are third.

the F400 is meaningful as it's a picture of the current shape; but this formula can't be applied to an all time best. Trophies and important wins over 7 - 8 years are not comparable to trophies and important wins over a year.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby loutil on Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:29 am

betiko wrote:
donche64 wrote:Only 12th... :( We'll have to keep on working hard then!!


i don't really think that ranking can be relevant... 90% of the people here, me included have never heard of DPLL.
A clan like LI is unquestionably the worse clan of all times, yet there are a few behind them, just because they didn't play enough wars to confirm how much below terrible they were, i doubt they could've scored more than a win against average clans.
TOP's biggest accomplishment is beating FOED and that ranks them as the second best clan of all times... go figure. A clan like S&M has won 3 CC cups and 2 first division titles; I doubt anyone will ever do as good, and yet they are third.

the F400 is meaningful as it's a picture of the current shape; but this formula can't be applied to an all time best. Trophies and important wins over 7 - 8 years are not comparable to trophies and important wins over a year.

It is not often we are in agreement 8-) .
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:32 am

Dako wrote:Image

The same but for clans.


Gotcha, that makes sense. I wasn't sure what you meant by per rank.
There is no automated way I can do this...so it would be another manually completed labor of love running 10 years of monthly updates (120 months) or bi monthly (240 updates) and tracking each clans highest and lowest achievements individually.... said in another way, tracking highest and lowest for all clans for 10 years of even monthly updates is about 14,000+ data points manually tracked...

Maybe wait another year :p I'll get around to it eventually, like I did this one lol
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby Dako on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:35 am

No rush, no rush :).
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:42 am

Arama86n wrote:wow, great work.
A bit controversial (for numerous reasons) yes, but still interesting.
And of course satisfying as a member of TOFU ;)

PS: I have NO recollection of "DPLL" at all :-s :shock:
Whoever you were, well done on making t-16 all time though.


DPLL - https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php? ... ClanId=133

I had only heard of them because someone told me once there was a clan named lazors pew pew (maybe it was Keefie) and I didn't believe him and had to look it up. :lol:

Apparently they didn't last long. As others have said, there are a few anomalies for clans with very little criteria, either being not low enough because they didn't stay around long enough to show truly how bad they were, or only here a short time and don't have enough criteria to really compare them much to others yet.

But still, for clans with more history around it's interesting in the view of historical best of discussions even if you have to manually edit out a few weird occurrences in order to form your own top version of clans. I mean, if someone proposed this version of top 10 of all time would many people think it was very skewed?

1. TOFU
2. S&M
3. THOTA
4. FALL
5. EMP
6. AOC
7. TSM
8. ACE
9. PACK
10. IA
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby macken on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:48 am

It is not easy to compare because the points achieved in a few years ago, were achieved against rivals in that time.
And the points achieved now are against the current rivals.

Therefore, what it is closest to an assessment of all time, have to count the titles won above all. The ratio of wins is no reliable data to the same extent, as it is in tournaments where the highest competition takes place.

That said, it is true that TOP does not occupy its rightful place. I hope that in the next revision we'll higher up :D
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby betiko on Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:17 am

IcePack wrote:
Arama86n wrote:wow, great work.
A bit controversial (for numerous reasons) yes, but still interesting.
And of course satisfying as a member of TOFU ;)

PS: I have NO recollection of "DPLL" at all :-s :shock:
Whoever you were, well done on making t-16 all time though.


DPLL - https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php? ... ClanId=133

I had only heard of them because someone told me once there was a clan named lazors pew pew (maybe it was Keefie) and I didn't believe him and had to look it up. :lol:

Apparently they didn't last long. As others have said, there are a few anomalies for clans with very little criteria, either being not low enough because they didn't stay around long enough to show truly how bad they were, or only here a short time and don't have enough criteria to really compare them much to others yet.

But still, for clans with more history around it's interesting in the view of historical best of discussions even if you have to manually edit out a few weird occurrences in order to form your own top version of clans. I mean, if someone proposed this version of top 10 of all time would many people think it was very skewed?

1. TOFU
2. S&M
3. THOTA
4. FALL
5. EMP
6. AOC
7. TSM
8. ACE
9. PACK
10. IA


i don't really see how EMP, AOC, TSM, ACE, PACK or IA can be above LHDD. LHDD had 2 first years of existence pretty average but since the last 3 years has won more titles than any of these clans in their history. Out of these clans other than LHDD, only IA has won a major title (and that's the only thing they've won).
FOED would be in my top 10 of all times as well.

and yeah, heard about dragon lazors pew pew, but that would be DLPP not DPLL lol. I think this clan name deserves to be the best name of all times though, the guy who came up with that is a true genious and I want to know who he is! lol

CL7 div1 (2016): LHDD (runner up: FALL)
RC1 (2015): LHDD (runner up: FOED)
CL6 div2 (2015): LHDD (runner up: OSA )
NC4 (2014): LHDD (runner up: ATL)

and semifinalist of the last 2 CC (even if we're not eliminated yet)

In american sports, no one cares who did best in the regular season, it's who wins the playoffs that counts... therefore titles.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:44 am

I think all those clans have some titles at some point. Tho I agree mostly with your comments (LHDD would be 11th) so it would just be the strength of wars fought / won over time that pushes them over LHDD. But regarding titles, most of them do have some titles (at least one?) or multiple runners up etc.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:55 am

I'm not sure how AoC gets into a Top 10 over LHDD and FOED.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby jdw35 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:03 pm

IcePack wrote:
Arama86n wrote:wow, great work.
A bit controversial (for numerous reasons) yes, but still interesting.
And of course satisfying as a member of TOFU ;)

PS: I have NO recollection of "DPLL" at all :-s :shock:
Whoever you were, well done on making t-16 all time though.


DPLL - https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php? ... ClanId=133

I had only heard of them because someone told me once there was a clan named lazors pew pew (maybe it was Keefie) and I didn't believe him and had to look it up. :lol:

Apparently they didn't last long. As others have said, there are a few anomalies for clans with very little criteria, either being not low enough because they didn't stay around long enough to show truly how bad they were, or only here a short time and don't have enough criteria to really compare them much to others yet.

But still, for clans with more history around it's interesting in the view of historical best of discussions even if you have to manually edit out a few weird occurrences in order to form your own top version of clans. I mean, if someone proposed this version of top 10 of all time would many people think it was very skewed?

1. TOFU
2. S&M
3. THOTA
4. FALL
5. EMP
6. AOC
7. TSM
8. ACE
9. PACK
10. IA


lol oh gosh I forgot I was even a part of DLPP :lol: :lol: That was quite a while ago! Interesting to see the 2 wars we won was enough to get us to 16th all time...

speaking of which, I see that I never received a medal for that war win lol were medals not issued back then? or did I not meet requirements?
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby betiko on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:07 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:I'm not sure how AoC gets into a Top 10 over LHDD and FOED.


Because FOED and LHDD are clans that haven t always been on top, even if they have both achieved way more than AOC.
AOC has never won anything, but in the eyes of some, anything done by empire aoc and ace is put in the same bag.
If longevity, titles, amount of war and events played isn't factored, this ranking is silly.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby betiko on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:09 pm

jdw35 wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Arama86n wrote:wow, great work.
A bit controversial (for numerous reasons) yes, but still interesting.
And of course satisfying as a member of TOFU ;)

PS: I have NO recollection of "DPLL" at all :-s :shock:
Whoever you were, well done on making t-16 all time though.


DPLL - https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php? ... ClanId=133

I had only heard of them because someone told me once there was a clan named lazors pew pew (maybe it was Keefie) and I didn't believe him and had to look it up. :lol:

Apparently they didn't last long. As others have said, there are a few anomalies for clans with very little criteria, either being not low enough because they didn't stay around long enough to show truly how bad they were, or only here a short time and don't have enough criteria to really compare them much to others yet.

But still, for clans with more history around it's interesting in the view of historical best of discussions even if you have to manually edit out a few weird occurrences in order to form your own top version of clans. I mean, if someone proposed this version of top 10 of all time would many people think it was very skewed?

1. TOFU
2. S&M
3. THOTA
4. FALL
5. EMP
6. AOC
7. TSM
8. ACE
9. PACK
10. IA


lol oh gosh I forgot I was even a part of DLPP :lol: :lol: That was quite a while ago! Interesting to see the 2 wars we won was enough to get us to 16th all time...

speaking of which, I see that I never received a medal for that war win lol were medals not issued back then? or did I not meet requirements?


So who came up with such a brilliant name?
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:16 pm

betiko wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:I'm not sure how AoC gets into a Top 10 over LHDD and FOED.


Because FOED and LHDD are clans that haven t always been on top, even if they have both achieved way more than AOC.
AOC has never won anything, but in the eyes of some, anything done by empire aoc and ace is put in the same bag.
If longevity, titles, amount of war and events played isn't factored, this ranking is silly.


I don't think I or anyone is saying this is the final word on who the top 10 ever are, but it's interesting to see what "stats" say to use as part of the discussion, and compare to the lists and arguments / titles others have factored in.

This ranking does not lump EMP / AOC / ACE all in one. They are all considered seperate for this ranking purposes.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby jdw35 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:17 pm

betiko wrote:
jdw35 wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Arama86n wrote:wow, great work.
A bit controversial (for numerous reasons) yes, but still interesting.
And of course satisfying as a member of TOFU ;)

PS: I have NO recollection of "DPLL" at all :-s :shock:
Whoever you were, well done on making t-16 all time though.


DPLL - https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php? ... ClanId=133

I had only heard of them because someone told me once there was a clan named lazors pew pew (maybe it was Keefie) and I didn't believe him and had to look it up. :lol:

Apparently they didn't last long. As others have said, there are a few anomalies for clans with very little criteria, either being not low enough because they didn't stay around long enough to show truly how bad they were, or only here a short time and don't have enough criteria to really compare them much to others yet.

But still, for clans with more history around it's interesting in the view of historical best of discussions even if you have to manually edit out a few weird occurrences in order to form your own top version of clans. I mean, if someone proposed this version of top 10 of all time would many people think it was very skewed?

1. TOFU
2. S&M
3. THOTA
4. FALL
5. EMP
6. AOC
7. TSM
8. ACE
9. PACK
10. IA


lol oh gosh I forgot I was even a part of DLPP :lol: :lol: That was quite a while ago! Interesting to see the 2 wars we won was enough to get us to 16th all time...

speaking of which, I see that I never received a medal for that war win lol were medals not issued back then? or did I not meet requirements?


So who came up with such a brilliant name?


I'm pretty sure it was Lanyards. Could have been the.killing.44 or KOG but I don't remember. I just know that I was terrible back then and was basically a pawn. Learned a lot though!
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:20 pm

jdw35 wrote:lol oh gosh I forgot I was even a part of DLPP :lol: :lol: That was quite a while ago! Interesting to see the 2 wars we won was enough to get us to 16th all time...

speaking of which, I see that I never received a medal for that war win lol were medals not issued back then? or did I not meet requirements?


No idea, that was before my time. I believe they did go back and issue historical medals at one point that met certain specific criteria. But would require a mini research project to find out what those were and who had been issued.

The info is out there somewhere, Cheme would know best.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:38 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:I'm not sure how AoC gets into a Top 10 over LHDD and FOED.


I think some of you forget how the top 5 for like a two year period included was TOFU, KORT, EMPIRE, TSM and AOC. So to me it makes sense that they are above LHDD. Wasn't EMP fighting for first place for a long time in F400?

And at betiko, it actually isn't all seen as one because we weren't allowed to keep our ranking unlike S&M because they declared as an addition of teamates instead of a merger? Or I could be wrong. I'm not all that up to date and in the know on history.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:48 pm

Correct
EMP & AOC - both disbanded and formed a new clan (ACE).
KORT/TSM - TSM disbanded and joined KORT. KORT changed name afterwards to S&M but it's still KORT history
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby Leehar on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:50 pm

IcePack wrote:
jdw35 wrote:lol oh gosh I forgot I was even a part of DLPP :lol: :lol: That was quite a while ago! Interesting to see the 2 wars we won was enough to get us to 16th all time...

speaking of which, I see that I never received a medal for that war win lol were medals not issued back then? or did I not meet requirements?


No idea, that was before my time. I believe they did go back and issue historical medals at one point that met certain specific criteria. But would require a mini research project to find out what those were and who had been issued.

The info is out there somewhere, Cheme would know best.

Both war's were only 20 games. Minimum for the historical medals was about 35 if I recall correctly.

Also Betiko, some bias in favour of your own clans is anticipated, but it would be appreciated if you could be a bit respectful of the other clans. AoC was definitely in the top 3 or 4 clans for a long period of time (similar to where LHDD are currently), and while the top 10 clans of all time will always be a matter for opinion, they definitely deserve to have a seat at the table and be factored into the discussion. On which note, do the clans on clandemonium need to be updated? Is it even possible to have a v2 perhaps?

While we're on that topic, I'd like to give a props to Fall and LHDD (and Foed to a lesser extent). They've always hovered around that top 10 mark, but they've really stepped up their games over the last 2 years, and are deservedly up there. With Fall particularly, a win by 1 game may be termed a fluke if it happens once or twice, but they've been making it a habit to the extent where perhaps the loss in the clan leagues felt like the unlucky twist, which shows the work that's gone into it. The latest in this stream is the S&M, and if memory serves, it started against us in the quarters last year.

PS. betiko, I just wanted to say that I value your insights, but I supported LHDD for the CL win (as underdogs in a sense) and I wouldn't want that to be coloured by what sometimes seems as arrogance (even if not intended that way)

Edit: I see a couple of others came out in support of AoC. I sincerely apologise for any offense caused, as at the end of the day Betiko is still helping further discourse which was part of the point of this thread in the first place.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby rockfist on Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:10 pm

My personal opinion is that on an all time scale the three CC wins and two CL wins make KORT first, but with one more win TOFU will be in its fourth straight CC final, which is pretty good and if we win this one we'd have two wins and a CL title, so I don't think its impossible for us to get to 5 major championships....very hard, yes, impossible - no.
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Re: Top 10 Clans of All Time

Postby Arama86n on Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:38 pm

Some people should study history more closely.
AoC for example may never have reached #1, but they were consistently top for a long time. And that, to me at least, means a lot.

Also I think there is a memory bias. it is easy to remember who was #1 last year. I may be harder to remember who war #3-#5 between 2012-2014 for example

I could write a bloody A4, but I'll pass.

Hail TSM, Hail Empire, Hail AoC.
And ofc, eternal glory to KORT. But that should go without saying.
I have also always had a lot of respect for IA. Not sure exactly where I'd put them in a historical t10 list.
THOTA was slightly before my time.
I won't even mention FALL. It is a like commenting a painting half-way through. Legacy in motion. Keep it up gents/ladies.

The absolute hardest clan to talk about is TOP. It is just too soon. An amazing start to the career, it goes without saying. But it is just too early to say anything. We look forward to the year to come TOP.
Second hardest is PACK. Hard to compare a relatively short-lived peak to long-lived clans. No offence at all, I just don't know how to judge it.

As for TOFU. We outlived several crises, CC2, CC3. People taunted, people said we were "over". It got even harder, the people that were left were overworked. We lost more to burnout. But we endured. We recruited, We survived, we persevered, and we stayed close to the summit.
I am proud of my clan. Very proud. Enough said.

There are other clans I would like to mention, like OSA and RA in different contexts. But if I go beyond this t10, it will be two A4's, and no one will read it anyway :D
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