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[CC7] Finals S&M (31) vs FALL (30) - S&M Wins - Final 4/5/18

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby xroads on Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:43 pm

What I would like to know is where all these rules are posted for everyone to read at any time?
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby IcePack on Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:46 pm

davekettering wrote:S&M will agree to remake these three games. However i do feel that we should clarify the rules such that this situation is never repeated.

thank you all for the input.

Lets get on with finishing this war.

Dave


Thanks Dave for taking the time to talk it out w me and willingness to work together and resolve the matter.

I’ll remake the games today and send them over to you.

As discussed the team will look at some of the suggestions posted here and post in CDF + in the announcements here the rule for all to see.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby IcePack on Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:52 pm

emilywink wrote:i have so much respect for josko and icepack it is really off the charts and thank you both so much for how much you contribute to my clan/CC in general.

nothing was done out of malice.

it is not hard to see how josko would be frustrated with the situation because with common sense really it is a bunch of silliness, this is a game, and I think that it's unfortunate that a small amount of time in an insignificant game a player was eliminated from can cause something like games in a war to not count.

it is not hard to see how icepack was shocked by the situation, upset about not being included in the further communication that took place, and wants to abide by the rules as they are written. it is also awesome that he is not trying to push for games being a forfeit which would be excessive in my opinion.

I feel a huge need (maybe even a yearning) to play in a game with swifte right now.
that swifte, so hot right now.

ok, i am gonna go over here and sit with Rockfist


Thanks Emily, dave and I had a good discussion about it. Both of us agree nothing was done in malice and patched things up. I have a lot of respect for dave and glad he and I could find common ground and move forward.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Arama86n on Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 pm

My advice to FALL would be: Let it go.

Especially considering:
CatchersMitt14 wrote:Keefie, the TO, is the ultimate dictator of the rules here. If Dave asked the TO and the TO said, 'yes, Swifte can play' then that's the ruling. IcePack may outrank Keefie in the clan department however when it comes to the tournaments and leagues Keefie is positionally over IcePack. One wouldn't think twice about playing Swifte after the TO explicitly said Swifte can play.

I agree.

I will exercise extreme self restraint and not write anything further.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby josko.ri on Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:22 pm

Arama86n wrote:My advice to FALL would be: Let it go.

Especially considering:
CatchersMitt14 wrote:Keefie, the TO, is the ultimate dictator of the rules here. If Dave asked the TO and the TO said, 'yes, Swifte can play' then that's the ruling. IcePack may outrank Keefie in the clan department however when it comes to the tournaments and leagues Keefie is positionally over IcePack. One wouldn't think twice about playing Swifte after the TO explicitly said Swifte can play.

I agree.

I will exercise extreme self restraint and not write anything further.

My suggestion was to put on CD&F forum for voting who is right. If IcePack is right and his rule is clear to everyone then he would anyway win in the voting, no? But it seems that he is afraid to put it on voting because he is well aware that the rule was not clear and, more important that that, not visible to CC community but only visible in hidden forum.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby rockfist on Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:35 pm

Josko you are just salty because you know that Fallen will be able to add a clan league trophy to their trophy case next year and you’ll still have to fight us to do the same. ;)
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby IcePack on Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:35 pm

josko.ri wrote:
Arama86n wrote:My advice to FALL would be: Let it go.

Especially considering:
CatchersMitt14 wrote:Keefie, the TO, is the ultimate dictator of the rules here. If Dave asked the TO and the TO said, 'yes, Swifte can play' then that's the ruling. IcePack may outrank Keefie in the clan department however when it comes to the tournaments and leagues Keefie is positionally over IcePack. One wouldn't think twice about playing Swifte after the TO explicitly said Swifte can play.

I agree.

I will exercise extreme self restraint and not write anything further.

My suggestion was to put on CD&F forum for voting who is right. If IcePack is right and his rule is clear to everyone then he would anyway win in the voting, no? But it seems that he is afraid to put it on voting because he is well aware that the rule was not clear and, more important that that, not visible to CC community but only visible in hidden forum.


Josko....this has nothing to do with me being afraid. There are processes and policies in place to protect clans.

This was not a TO level decision. TO are responsible for event related rules. Stuff like sitting rules, one clan rules, etc are not event related but department rules. These are things that are universal regardless of the event, war, league etc.

They aurely aren’t up to be voted on in CDF. If Keefie said he would hand you 5 medals for no reason that would not be ok either. If there was a conflict then the entire team should have been included in the process, it doesn’t go to a TO at that level for a dept issue.

This is my last post here on the matter, I don’t want to distract anymore from the war then already has happened. Dave and I already resolved this together as ministers of war for both clans, and Keefie has apologized.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Keefie on Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:40 pm

To add.

Josko, the matter is resolved as far as CC7 is concerned. This thread is not the place for further analysis into the rules.

Thanks
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Swifte on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:03 pm

Let it be so. See you next time ;)
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby agentcom on Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:05 pm

MTIceman41 wrote:
IcePack wrote:I’m discussing this again w Dave. Hopefully we can resolve this and move forward. This public mud slingling is the last thing I wanted when I approached Dave privately over pm.

I don’t want to continue to muddy an otherwise friendly war that’s gone well so far.


I can back that up...I dont think anything was done out of malice or trickery.

Lots of very good players and friends; lets keep it going as a good war.


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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby rockfist on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:07 pm

josko.ri wrote:Every year we have less and less Clans, less and less players participating in CCups.


One way to ensure we have more clans would be to restrict the number of people who can be in a clan to some number, say 35 or 50...that way they would have to spread out more and no that is not me or TOFU being afraid. We will take on anyone.

You want to see me being afraid - come to the gym, its leg day. If you aren't afraid, you aren't trying hard enough.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby MTIceman41 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:35 pm

rockfist wrote:
josko.ri wrote:Every year we have less and less Clans, less and less players participating in CCups.


One way to ensure we have more clans would be to restrict the number of people who can be in a clan to some number, say 35 or 50...that way they would have to spread out more and no that is not me or TOFU being afraid. We will take on anyone.

You want to see me being afraid - come to the gym, its leg day. If you aren't afraid, you aren't trying hard enough.


Ha I think I could have a fun gym sesh will you :D
I thought same thing about S&M member list, but they keep some members on the list for some very honorable reasons; some things I wouldn't poke fun at.
Ps would love for you to visit CA someday...mess you up in CC and at the gym \:D/
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby rockfist on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:44 pm

I do have to get out more...I'm like one of those giant carp in a small pond where I live (which means I would get eaten alive in the ocean), but when I lived in Chicago I trained with some very big and strong people (including Sergio Oliva a few times...yes the Sergio who beat Arnold at the Olympia back in the day).
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Arama86n on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:59 pm

I wouldn't want to force clans to drop members with a rule change now that the clan scene has been around for so long, it would be unfair.
That said though, it would be *very* interesting theoretically if one limited clan size to 25 or even 20 players.
Then you'd really have to earn your place at the table.
Having an unrestricted clan size is one of the things that could have been done better in hindsight.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby emilywink on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:11 pm

it does sound cool, I like the idea of a tight band of 10-15 players even. Seems like you would be even more familiar with each other, have more chemistry, someone leaving or joining would be a much bigger deal.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby rcfritz on Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:42 pm

agentcom wrote:
MTIceman41 wrote:
IcePack wrote:I’m discussing this again w Dave. Hopefully we can resolve this and move forward. This public mud slingling is the last thing I wanted when I approached Dave privately over pm.

I don’t want to continue to muddy an otherwise friendly war that’s gone well so far.


I can back that up...I dont think anything was done out of malice or trickery.

Lots of very good players and friends; lets keep it going as a good war.


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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Keefie on Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:42 am

emilywink wrote:it does sound cool, I like the idea of a tight band of 10-15 players even. Seems like you would be even more familiar with each other, have more chemistry, someone leaving or joining would be a much bigger deal.


Most clans probably do have less than 20 active members.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby josko.ri on Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:43 am

Although limiting maximum number of players per Clan would affect S&M clan the most because we have the most members, I see some benefit for the clan world in implementing that idea, in terms of having more players spread to other Clans and have Clan scene being more alive. I kind of like that idea for Tribes as well.

However, if that idea will anyway be implemented, it should not affect Clans Tribes who already have more players than the limit because they did recruiting strategy according to current rules where no restrictions were present. In that case, I would just support no more recruiting for Clans/Tribes who are currently above limit, until their number of players comes below the limit.

But definitely this is an interesting idea to consider although S&M as the biggest Clan would lose the most with this idea being implemented.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Arama86n on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:42 am

I have no illusions about this actually being able to be implemented in a way that will be satisfactory to all effected by it. Nor that a vast majority would even approve of it. But the truth seems to be that asking clans to restrict the roster to 25 players wouldn't entail much more than ejecting all the bench warmers.
Looking at the six clans with the largest roster, and then looking how many were actually active in a recent war, turns out the following:

S&M 49 (27 active)
Ret 40 (23 active)
Low 39 (26 active)
fia 38 (26 active)
Pack 37 (22 active)
Foed 36 (19 active)

Thus asking to restrict to 25 isn't going to change much at all. You'd have to go to 20 players to shake things up, if that is the goal.

(The numbers of active players/clan here could be off by several players per clan of course, as I just looked at one recent war per clan. An exact number is not really the point here)
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby rockfist on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:55 am

josko.ri wrote:
However, if that idea will anyway be implemented, it should not affect Clans Tribes who already have more players than the limit because they did recruiting strategy according to current rules where no restrictions were present. In that case, I would just support no more recruiting for Clans/Tribes who are currently above limit, until their number of players comes below the limit.


Absolutely!
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby GoranZ on Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:15 am

Arama86n wrote:Thus asking to restrict to 25 isn't going to change much at all. You'd have to go to 20 players to shake things up, if that is the goal.

I would like 35 limit for both Clans and Tribes... 30 members is good number for all active members but sometimes you have men who come and go and play from time to time... 5 slots for them is realistic(they might never return without an option to play for their favorite clan).
Those clans that currently have above this number should not kick their members out but they will not be able to add new members.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby Arama86n on Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:13 am

If you look at how many players are actually active a cut to 35 seems like a half-measure. Or rather, less than a half measure.
It would force S&M to drop 10 people that probably havn't played for a year or two anyway. And force another 5 clans to drop 2-3 people that are retired/inactive from their rosters. To what effect?
For there to be any point to this the cut must be far deeper than 35 in my opinion.
Even 25 would just be cosmetic for most clans, forcing them to remove inactive people until such a time as they wish to come back.
Arguments could be made against cosmetic changes, because it would mean retired members can't pop in to say hello in the forum once in a while.
Unless you take it further and have an active roster of 25 or 20, with a sub-roster for inactive members that grants forum access to their former clan. Or something like that.

All the same, I'm pleased that people actually are interested in the general idea.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby GoranZ on Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:37 am

Arama86n wrote:All the same, I'm pleased that people actually are interested in the general idea.

Well this will make a lot of clans more competitive, and the whole game will not spin around 3-4 clans that have enough active members. But I wouldn't go for 20-25 limit mark, its low in my eyes.
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby xroads on Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:47 am

If you do that, you will have to make sets smaller, and allow more players per set. Some wars with 30 game sets would be hard for smaller clans
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Re: [CC7] Finals S&M [18] vs FALL [11] of 61

Postby xroads on Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:47 am

Anyway, to get back on topic.

I think S&M has win #20 in the bucket, 11 more to go
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