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[CC8] Final: TOFU (34) vs LHDD (27) - TOFU WIN 2/17/19

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby IcePack on Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:29 pm

Caymanmew wrote:
IcePack wrote:
Caymanmew wrote:
rockfist wrote:If the rankings for the next tournament are being picked, not having the loss on your record so you get a higher seeding might be one reason.


Higher seeds don't matter much. Only the top 8 get seeded and everyone else is random. If your around this late into the competition you will be top 8.

To prove my point that seeds don't matter you guys got #1 seed and got us (ATL ranked 12th) S&M are 3rd seed and got VNM who are ranked 17th. LHDD are second seed and got RGV(19th) / ID(unranked).


It might not matter much on who you face in the first match up, but certainly the difference between 1,2,3,4 etc matters because it determines which clans you must go through and which side of the bracket you are on


Although that is true most of the tops clans are going to be a real hard fight as long as they are focused. The ones at the top tend to be focused more often but imo anyone in the top 7 have the ability to beat anyone else.


I don’t necessarily disagree, but saying seeding doesn’t matter is a bit incorrect. Even amongst the top 8, there are generally preferred people you’d rather face even tho both are going to be tough.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby iAmCaffeine on Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:35 pm

Cayman has very little experience with the top clans. For arguments sake, let's say the top 7 clans all carry the same weight in the F400 and have the same overall record, same average score etc. whatever. Each clan will still have preferences of who they face due to map specialisation and styles of play.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby rockfist on Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:41 pm

I think Fallen was the only clan ranked lower than 4th going into the tournament to ever win this tournament and they will have to do that again if they want to win this new year, but by the time they reached the finals they had rose to about 2nd or 3rd in the rankings the year they won it.

S&M won the tournament last year. They beat us in the semi-finals. We look to be on pace to win the tournament this year. We beat S&M in the semi-finals. I have no desire to face S&M in another semi-final. Icepack understands how hard that is, but people in other clans do not. S&M has won this tournament more times than anyone - and that isn't luck.

Brackets matter.

I also agree with Caff.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby Donelladan on Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:45 pm

Nice speculation but this is definitely not what was LHDD did in our war agains TOFU 2 years ago, since ranking is calculated after all games are finished, and there were two other games ongoing.
And it's not smthg that matters for the finale either. Any advantage you can think of to stall a game in the finale ?
Also you can achieve this purpose with a single game, no need to got 100% trench game, one is enough....


rockfist wrote:There were and are no hard feelings on my end. You did what you did and you were entitled to play it like you did. We are entitled to vote about expanding trench how we vote. But, it is not fair to say that we have no reason to believe you might use the possibility of all trench games to employ a stall tactic. How can you possibly know what someone else believes?


Sorry I was assuming you wouldn't imagine stupid stuff. Like for us to stall games for no reason.

I do consider that throwing one 2 year old game as having hard feeling about it. But it's only my understanding.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby rockfist on Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:55 pm

Donelladan wrote:Nice speculation but this is definitely not what was LHDD did in our war agains TOFU 2 years ago, since ranking is calculated after all games are finished, and there were two other games ongoing.
And it's not smthg that matters for the finale either. Any advantage you can think of to stall a game in the finale ?
Also you can achieve this purpose with a single game, no need to got 100% trench game, one is enough.


He asked for one possible reason. I gave him one. I didn't say it was your reason for stalling.

Yes, you could stall a game of the final for an advantage. Let's say we were ranked ahead of you in the D400 say in December, the final is tied 30-30 and its the last game. Its obvious that you are going to win the game and thus the final, but the seeding for the next year's tournament is picked based on whoever wins the tournament being a #1 seed, but if there is no winner when the seeding is picked the #1 seed for the next year out of the two finalists is chosen based on who is ahead in the D400. Would it be to our advantage to stall? Yes.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby Donelladan on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:01 pm

This isn't written on the rules.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby rockfist on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:03 pm

You lost me with that.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby Donelladan on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:07 pm

rockfist wrote:You lost me with that.

On CC9 rules, it says nowhere that if there is no winner for the CC8, it will be based on D400 ranking to determine which clan is first seed and which clan is second seed.
It's obviously what happened but it shouldn't have been if we follow the rule. Unless I miss it, but I just check didn't see anywhere such a rule.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:10 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:You'd be surprised how many French games I play mon ami. Half my family went to universities in France so we've had an affinity for the country all my life.

I thought perhaps you were thinking of Diplomacy (similar to Risk! only better) wherein only adjacent territories may be conquered. I don't remember the original rules to La Conquête du Monde but I played it :D


Interresting!
I'll try and do a bit of research, I remember someone posting a page where you could see the evolution of the rules of the game on several markets. The point of the guy who posted it was that it was originally a trench game before the rule evolved... but I saw that many years ago, more or less when trench was introduced on the site. Would be interresting to find that page.

Other than this you guys bore the hell out of me with your CC9 rules. Can we get back to dice complaining, being arrogant and making epenis contests about the remaining games please? Looks like you guys don't know how to behave.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Donelladan wrote:
rockfist wrote:You lost me with that.

On CC9 rules, it says nowhere that if there is no winner for the CC8, it will be based on D400 ranking to determine which clan is first seed and which clan is second seed.
It's obviously what happened but it shouldn't have been if we follow the rule. Unless I miss it, but I just check didn't see anywhere such a rule.


Shut up Donny! We're trying to bowl here!
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby rockfist on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:23 pm

Donelladan wrote:
rockfist wrote:There were and are no hard feelings on my end. You did what you did and you were entitled to play it like you did. We are entitled to vote about expanding trench how we vote. But, it is not fair to say that we have no reason to believe you might use the possibility of all trench games to employ a stall tactic. How can you possibly know what someone else believes?


Sorry I was assuming you wouldn't imagine stupid stuff. Like for us to stall games for no reason.

I do consider that throwing one 2 year old game as having hard feeling about it. But it's only my understanding.


Its your public opinion that I am imagining stupid stuff.

What I am not imagining is: whether you stalled or not, due to the length of that Semi-finals match it pushed the Finals back into the heart of the CL season and so that the finals nearly overlapped with the first round of the CC competition the next year (this was even after the clans voted to lessen the number of games in each round because the tournament was taking too long to conclude, and less games is something I think is a distinct disadvantage to the better clans).

Its just not worth discussing the particulars though, its a lot of little things that taken individually wouldn't mean anything but collectively may.

Hard feelings would be I am out to get you, or wishing you ill will. I'm not. I don't. Our interest don't align on having the trench limit removed, so I guess you could say I want you to fail in that effort, but its not personal.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby rockfist on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:25 pm

Donelladan wrote:
rockfist wrote:You lost me with that.

On CC9 rules, it says nowhere that if there is no winner for the CC8, it will be based on D400 ranking to determine which clan is first seed and which clan is second seed.
It's obviously what happened but it shouldn't have been if we follow the rule. Unless I miss it, but I just check didn't see anywhere such a rule.


So I got some of the particulars wrong but not the general idea. If the #2 clan in the D400 is about to win against the #1 clan the #1 clan should stall so there is no winner.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby iAmCaffeine on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:33 pm

rockfist wrote:
Donelladan wrote:
rockfist wrote:There were and are no hard feelings on my end. You did what you did and you were entitled to play it like you did. We are entitled to vote about expanding trench how we vote. But, it is not fair to say that we have no reason to believe you might use the possibility of all trench games to employ a stall tactic. How can you possibly know what someone else believes?


Sorry I was assuming you wouldn't imagine stupid stuff. Like for us to stall games for no reason.

I do consider that throwing one 2 year old game as having hard feeling about it. But it's only my understanding.


Its your public opinion that I am imagining stupid stuff.

What I am not imagining is: whether you stalled or not, due to the length of that Semi-finals match it pushed the Finals back into the heart of the CL season and so that the finals nearly overlapped with the first round of the CC competition the next year (this was even after the clans voted to lessen the number of games in each round because the tournament was taking too long to conclude, and less games is something I think is a distinct disadvantage to the better clans).

Its just not worth discussing the particulars though, its a lot of little things that taken individually wouldn't mean anything but collectively may.

Hard feelings would be I am out to get you, or wishing you ill will. I'm not. I don't. Our interest don't align on having the trench limit removed, so I guess you could say I want you to fail in that effort, but its not personal.

You have a funny way of making it not personal.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby ZaBeast on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:38 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:Feel free to correct me but you guys sound awfully salty over 1 game that you claim was dragged out roughly 2yrs ago.


Still better than plain TOFU though?
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby loutil on Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:31 pm

betiko wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:You'd be surprised how many French games I play mon ami. Half my family went to universities in France so we've had an affinity for the country all my life.

I thought perhaps you were thinking of Diplomacy (similar to Risk! only better) wherein only adjacent territories may be conquered. I don't remember the original rules to La Conquête du Monde but I played it :D


Interresting!
I'll try and do a bit of research, I remember someone posting a page where you could see the evolution of the rules of the game on several markets. The point of the guy who posted it was that it was originally a trench game before the rule evolved... but I saw that many years ago, more or less when trench was introduced on the site. Would be interresting to find that page.

Other than this you guys bore the hell out of me with your CC9 rules. Can we get back to dice complaining, being arrogant and making epenis contests about the remaining games please? Looks like you guys don't know how to behave.

I did some research and this is the best I can find: https://winning-moves.com/images/Risk_Rulesv2.pdf

Here is really cool site: https://www.firstversions.com/2017/01/risk.html
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby loutil on Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:49 pm

Don,
I did some additional research into trench vs non trench. I limited my data to finished clan games that I have played. To avoid map bias, I chose the last 50 finished clan games I have played both trench and non trench. So, 100 games included. Average length of a trench game is 17 rounds. Average length on a non trench game is 9.8 rounds. Basically, trench games are lasting almost twice as long.
I will take the time and research the actual game length although I expect to find the same correlation.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby Chariot of Fire on Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:30 pm

loutil wrote:
betiko wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:You'd be surprised how many French games I play mon ami. Half my family went to universities in France so we've had an affinity for the country all my life.

I thought perhaps you were thinking of Diplomacy (similar to Risk! only better) wherein only adjacent territories may be conquered. I don't remember the original rules to La Conquête du Monde but I played it :D


Interresting!
I'll try and do a bit of research, I remember someone posting a page where you could see the evolution of the rules of the game on several markets. The point of the guy who posted it was that it was originally a trench game before the rule evolved... but I saw that many years ago, more or less when trench was introduced on the site. Would be interresting to find that page.

Other than this you guys bore the hell out of me with your CC9 rules. Can we get back to dice complaining, being arrogant and making epenis contests about the remaining games please? Looks like you guys don't know how to behave.

I did some research and this is the best I can find: https://winning-moves.com/images/Risk_Rulesv2.pdf

Here is really cool site: https://www.firstversions.com/2017/01/risk.html


That is a cool site, cheers mate
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby betiko on Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:26 pm

Oh my god... I didn’t know that the creator of risk was actually the film director of « le ballon rouge ». That was a huge hit during my parent’s childhood for french kids in the early 60s or whenever that was. I don’t know if it passed borders. It’s in the same vein as « zazie dans le métro » or « les vacances de monsieur Hulot » and all the Nouvelle Vague hype.
I had a photography book retracing the movie as a kid.
Those are just such different fields.. props to that guy for being so ecclectic.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:32 pm

"Monsieur Hulot's Holiday" - what a classic! Always felt Mr Bean got some of his ideas from that brilliant movie.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (25) vs LHDD (20)

Postby betiko on Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:56 am

here's the trailer

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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (27) vs LHDD (22)

Postby Donelladan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Congrats TOFU.
Not official yet but you have 31 wins secured for sure.

Final score should be between 35/26 and 32/29 depending of FNA quad, RSA quad and Draknor, the rest shouldn't move imho.

Well played. Another deserved title for you.

I enjoyed the war, and the war thread. :D We didn't want a dull final war thread :twisted:

Hopefully we'll meet each other here again in a couple of months, I've noticed we have a pretty easy bracket so should be doable to meet you in final again. 8-)
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (27) vs LHDD (22)

Postby IcePack on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:34 pm

Donelladan wrote:Hopefully we'll meet each other here again in a couple of months, I've noticed we have a pretty easy bracket so should be doable to meet you in final again. 8-)


I’ll make sure FALL sees this for CC9 :twisted:

Congrats TOFU =D> You’re names will be added to the Cup again when I get around to it
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (27) vs LHDD (22)

Postby Chariot of Fire on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:21 pm

Thanks Don. You folks have been marvelous adversaries and gave us one heck of a push towards the end after a slow start =D>

And thank you Ice Pack too :D
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (27) vs LHDD (22)

Postby loutil on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:57 am

Donelladan wrote:Congrats TOFU.
Not official yet but you have 31 wins secured for sure.

Final score should be between 35/26 and 32/29 depending of FNA quad, RSA quad and Draknor, the rest shouldn't move imho.

Well played. Another deserved title for you.

I enjoyed the war, and the war thread. :D We didn't want a dull final war thread :twisted:

Hopefully we'll meet each other here again in a couple of months, I've noticed we have a pretty easy bracket so should be doable to meet you in final again. 8-)

Sometimes a little agitation is good to keep everyone fired up and focused. Thanks for a great War.
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Re: [CC8] Final: TOFU (27) vs LHDD (22)

Postby betiko on Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:29 am

well done guys!

there is something we should do about slow starts.... it kind of always happens, the thig is that with good clans we still have a shot, but with top notch like yourselves the war was practically sealed after batch 1.. I did believe in our chances early 2019 though lol! At one point 3 games I was involved in all turned south at the same time.
Anyways, our first final.... next time we play one we'll try to start better lol.

what is it like the 4th one for you guys?
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