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[CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby SirSebstar on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:55 am

i disagree stahrgazer. If you put in the work, you should get the medal. (yea yea, i know, but for finals? sure)
Eiter that or not be allowed to participate at all.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:13 am

It's a bit of a conundrum isn't it. I do feel sorry that thebest712 wasn't permitted to play in CC1 (I wasn't actually aware of it tbh) but then I guess the rules were in place for that edition and players/clans participating were aware of them.

I do know of one disgruntled player that wishes to leave his clan and it would peeve me (and most of TOFU) no end if he happened to join a clan we faced later in the tourney and had to play him all over again in every game. Somehow it wouldn't seem right, so I guess a restriction on number of games (but enough to earn a medal) would make common sense.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jackal31 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:15 am

thebest712 wrote:
Chuuuuck wrote:I am not really taking the argument that the rule can't be changed now. I can see that argument being used for both sides here because to me, and most others, it was understood that the rule was already in place and therefore, it can't be changed now. To others, it didn't show up, so it can't be changed now. I am just ignoring that argument going both ways.

In saying that, even CoF who originally wanted the rule, seems to think it won't be a big deal now and suggested getting rid of it. I also don't see too much of a problem coming out of this. Therefore, I will remove the rule and say all players under discussion right now will no longer be cup tied. However, there are two exceptions. A player must finish all active games with their old clan in the cup before they can enter into new games in the cup with another clan. AND I will also reserve the right to make arbitrary decisions that some players are not allowed to play due to being cup tied if I feel it is happening to only participate and bring in ringers into the cup. For the most part, i don't see myself using this right until the semi finals or finals. I will be hesitant to allow any new players play with the clans in the semi finals and finals who join right before.

I hope this makes everyone happy. I still think the cup tied rule is a good rule, but I am making this decision due to the longevity of this event as a whole and the understanding this is a website that we each get on to every day for entertainment and it should not be my place to limit the entertainment of someone else.

Good luck folks.

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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jackal31 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:24 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I do know of one disgruntled player that wishes to leave his clan and it would peeve me (and most of TOFU) no end if he happened to join a clan we faced later in the tourney and had to play him all over again in every game. Somehow it wouldn't seem right, so I guess a restriction on number of games (but enough to earn a medal) would make common sense.


This is where I have to agree with CoF and Chuuuck about adding "ringers". To add someone in the last couple rounds of the tourney just doesnt make for good sports. I think there should be restrictions, but where do you draw the line ( I like the exec decision making of Chuuuck as the line). I feel we are still far enough out that if a clan member who participated in a prior match, then moved to another clan to play, isnt being added as a "ringer" but as a new member. I dont know the whole story with thebest either (and I dont understand the argument because KoRT won it anyway), but adding a player before the quarterfinals (3 rounds remaining in a 4-5 round tourney, depending what clan you are) isnt changing a whole lot.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Ace Rimmer on Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:43 am

This is a tough all here, and I really feel bad for Chuck with the position he's in. I agree with the cup-tied rule for the sake of ringers, but I know there are instances of people (such as best last year and pascal this year) who just feel more comfortable with a different clan. I think a case-by-case basis really is the best option here, and I hope everyone can trust and respect Chuck to make the most fair decision.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:15 am

Thanks for the support from some of you. Like jake said, I really don't like being put in the situation of having to make an executive decision on some of these, but I see no better way to handle it in a fair matter. I would prefer a straight forward rule that takes care of the situations but most seem to agree that the cup lasts too long and we shouldn't prevent legitimate recruitment. However, it seems most agree that there is very real potential for ringers in the final 8 rounds and beyond.

I will do my best, although I know it will not be easy from this point to make everyone happy.

I will just post this now so it does not come as a surprise to anyone. I will be very hesitant to allow anyone to play that comes from a clan that is eliminated in the round of 16 or round of 8 and switches after that. I feel those that have already switched or are switching now while their clans are still in the tournament are pretty legitimate but I won't feel comfortable letting someone play after it is pretty clear their clan will not be moving on.

When situations do arise, I will probably make them public talking matters just to make sure I understand many different view points before making the decision.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jackal31 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

I think that is a very fair way of handling this.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:35 am

Chuuuuck wrote: However, it seems most agree that there is very real potential for ringers in the final 8 rounds and beyond.


That still saddens me to think that players would hop clans just because of a loss that kept their original clan from moving to quarter-finals; but if it is suspected, I also have faith that you'll listen carefully to each side of a dispute before making an executive ruling.

I much prefer that to an event such as this making/keeping a rule that essentially limits legitimate recruitment.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby dwilhelmi on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:01 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I do know of one disgruntled player that wishes to leave his clan and it would peeve me (and most of TOFU) no end if he happened to join a clan we faced later in the tourney and had to play him all over again in every game.


Don't worry, CoF, we wouldn't take Charlie back anyway.
:P :lol: :P
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:10 am

dwilhelmi wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:I do know of one disgruntled player that wishes to leave his clan and it would peeve me (and most of TOFU) no end if he happened to join a clan we faced later in the tourney and had to play him all over again in every game.


Don't worry, CoF, we wouldn't take Charlie back anyway.
:P :lol: :P



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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby lord voldemort on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:10 am

dwilhelmi wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:I do know of one disgruntled player that wishes to leave his clan and it would peeve me (and most of TOFU) no end if he happened to join a clan we faced later in the tourney and had to play him all over again in every game.


Don't worry, CoF, we wouldn't take Charlie back anyway.
:P :lol: :P

damn straight
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby josko.ri on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:21 pm

it was made the worst possible decision about this IMHO. dealing with this in player-by-player basis is great background for making unfair decisions, which may cause non-equal conditions to clans, because to someones it will be allowed to get ringers and to someones will not be. on paper we are all equal, but someones are obviously "more equal" than others. very sad :(

I saw many good solutions for defining rule about this which would be equal to everyone. I mostly liked this one:

laughingcavalier wrote:A better rule might say something like:
If you have already played in the Cup and join a different clan you cannot take part in any active Cup challenge or the next round of the Cup.


missing one round of Cup due to playing for other clan in previous round would not harm the missing player a lot, and would still allow to join for new clan in next rounds.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Dako on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:26 pm

I like that people are not equal.

I also like the idea about missing one round of CCup but I think ringers will not be the issue of this tournament.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:27 pm

I understand your point of view josko and for the most part I agree with it. However, there were many more posts who disagreed with our point of view than agreed with it. Most felt that this is an online game for entertainment purposes and we shouldn't have legitimate players who switch clans forced to sit out for 1-2 months (or more). I would like a hard and fast rule, but I understand people's point of view saying these people should not be forced to sit out.

I don't like having to make decisions on a case by case basis either because it can result in bias whether it be intentional or not. That is why I hope most here trust that I will read all posts regarding any matter and make a sound decision that I feel is in the best interest for all involved and fairness in the cup. All discussions where I am considering not letting someone play will be public and I will eventually give a solid reasoning either way.

Hopefully this matter can be discussed more either here or in public and we can come up with a better solution for future tournaments.

P.S. I forgot to do it before, but game lines have been updated on 2nd post. I tried to figure out a way to show the score of each matchup on the bracket but the program I am using won't let me do it... :-s
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby danryan on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:52 pm

I wonder who will be the lowest seed in the final 8?
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Commander9 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:59 pm

Personally, since I think this is pretty much the "best" that CC has to offer, so we should hold this is at a very high esteem. The fairest thing to do would be used the exact same rules that apply to UEFA Champion's League - if a player plays even one game, he's cup tied to that clan and can not represent any other clans during the course of the tournament. To put it in a very simple terms - a player can switch a clan, but he can't participate in CCup if he has already played for another clan.
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Rodion on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:13 pm

Commander9 wrote:Personally, since I think this is pretty much the "best" that CC has to offer, so we should hold this is at a very high esteem. The fairest thing to do would be used the exact same rules that apply to UEFA Champion's League - if a player plays even one game, he's cup tied to that clan and can not represent any other clans during the course of the tournament. To put it in a very simple terms - a player can switch a clan, but he can't participate in CCup if he has already played for another clan.


I like that.

I wouldn't mind if that player got to represent his old clan, though, obviously provided his old clan is still in the running.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:18 pm

Rodion wrote:
Commander9 wrote:Personally, since I think this is pretty much the "best" that CC has to offer, so we should hold this is at a very high esteem. The fairest thing to do would be used the exact same rules that apply to UEFA Champion's League - if a player plays even one game, he's cup tied to that clan and can not represent any other clans during the course of the tournament. To put it in a very simple terms - a player can switch a clan, but he can't participate in CCup if he has already played for another clan.


I like that.

I wouldn't mind if that player got to represent his old clan, though, obviously provided his old clan is still in the running.


I agree also, but what if a clan entered into the Cup but then disbanded and a player joined another clan who is still in the running?
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Commander9 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:25 pm

Rodion wrote:
I like that.

I wouldn't mind if that player got to represent his old clan, though, obviously provided his old clan is still in the running.


Nola_Lifer wrote:I agree also, but what if a clan entered into the Cup but then disbanded and a player joined another clan who is still in the running?


Both fair points. I personally wouldn't mind a player returning and representing his old clan. As far as if the clan was disbanded... I guess this could be an exception as it does make sense to allow these players to participate. The main thing I like about this rule is that it's written in stone and no people could claim that it's unfair treatment to anyone (My perspective anyways).
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby reptile on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:30 pm

I may be a LITTLE out of the loop, but who exactly are we talking about? Who is jumping ship to another clan?

Anyway, i think that missing 1 round of the cup would be fair to any player that is doing this.

#1 because it is still up to the receiving clan if they WANT to take them (despite being their competition)

#2 mainly because now most of the good players are taken by one clan or another... it is very hard finding great players that are already not in a clan. So when you do get a new member a lot of times it may come from another clan, so you can not really enforce that they cant play in the cup. Especially when it could be the only "challenge" that your new clan is in for the next 5 months! This is a case for a lot of clans, many clans cant do CCup as well as other challenges. Also each challenge takes about a month, isn't that enough of a penalty?

#3 The Cup lasts long enough that it wouldnt be fair to make the said player not be able to go to war with his new clan mates for that long of a time.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Commander9 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:34 pm

reptile wrote:I may be a LITTLE out of the loop, but who exactly are we talking about? Who is jumping ship to another clan?

Anyway, i think that missing 1 round of the cup would be fair to any player that is doing this.

#1 because it is still up to the receiving clan if they WANT to take them (despite being their competition)

#2 mainly because now most of the good players are taken by one clan or another... it is very hard finding great players that are already not in a clan. So when you do get a new member a lot of times it may come from another clan, so you can not really enforce that they cant play in the cup. Especially when it could be the only "challenge" that your new clan is in for the next 5 months! This is a case for a lot of clans, many clans cant do CCup as well as other challenges. Also each challenge takes about a month, isn't that enough of a penalty?

#3 The Cup lasts long enough that it wouldnt be fair to make the said player not be able to go to war with his new clan mates for that long of a time.


I don't really agree with this. That player can still participate in the league and in other clan challenges, so he's only excluded from 1 clan tournament. Also, I can fully understand what others said about not wanting to face a player that just left - I completely agree with this. If you really want to play that much for the new clan, don't play for your old one. Your variation in a way encourages jumping from one ship to another and I think that loyalty should be a value with big emphasis when it comes to clan. If you are willing to ditch your clan, you should also be willing to accept the consequences.
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:37 pm

Commander, the rule you stated was the rule we had in place for the first cup. People were complaining because there hasn't been anyone who has tried to switch clans just to participate in the cup or for a competitive advantage, but at the same time, when clans such as KoRT or THOTA (who were in the finals) and TOFU and LoW (form the semi finals) try to recruit players, often times those players are having to sit out of clan games for the better part of a year.

Many people don't think it is fair to have to sit out for nearly a year after you have made the choice to switch clans.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:39 pm

Commander9 wrote:I don't really agree with this. That player can still participate in the league and in other clan challenges, so he's only excluded from 1 clan tournament.


This is wrong. The clans we are concerned with are the clans that have repeatedly made it deep into the conqueror's cup. Those clans get there by limiting their games and paying close attention to their cup games. I don't think a single clan that was in the final 8 last year played another challenge while still in the cup. And with the league only lasting so long (and having very few games) new players in the clans that go far into the tournament are not able to participate in much of anything because the good clans are not going to do the conqueror's cup plus additional challenges.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Commander9 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:46 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:Commander, the rule you stated was the rule we had in place for the first cup. People were complaining because there hasn't been anyone who has tried to switch clans just to participate in the cup or for a competitive advantage, but at the same time, when clans such as KoRT or THOTA (who were in the finals) and TOFU and LoW (form the semi finals) try to recruit players, often times those players are having to sit out of clan games for the better part of a year.

Many people don't think it is fair to have to sit out for nearly a year after you have made the choice to switch clans.


Well, I'm no authority and I don't really have any ability to enforce what I am suggesting - I am just merely stating my opinion on what should be fair. It takes a lot of effort to run a tournament like this and you have done brilliantly so far - I have absolutely nothing to complain about. This is your baby and you are the one who makes the executive decisions, which is never easy. Think of me as trying to be helpful.

RE: Clan switches

I think that loyalty is something that should be encouraged and that any time people are considering switching from one clan to another, they would have to weight their options really well before making that decision. Your examples of LoW, TOFU and all is pretty much exactly what I meant - a lot of times a "good" player gets an offer from a top tier clan and suddenly just jumps at the opportunity. This rule, however, would make them think twice as I'm personally not a very big fan of a couple big clans recruiting and trying to get all best players from other clans.

RE: No games in the "new" clan

First of all, FOED has advanced to the next round and so did Empire and both of these clans already have a challenge that new members could play in. Furthermore, no one is forcing those players to join their new clans.
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chuuuuck on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Commander9 wrote:
Well, I'm no authority and I don't really have any ability to enforce what I am suggesting - I am just merely stating my opinion on what should be fair. It takes a lot of effort to run a tournament like this and you have done brilliantly so far - I have absolutely nothing to complain about. This is your baby and you are the one who makes the executive decisions, which is never easy. Think of me as trying to be helpful.


I am not bashing your opinion. Just trying to state the opinions on the other side of the fight. I understand your opinion and like I have said before, kind of agree with it. My only sympathy comes from the longevity of this event and how long it is forcing some players to sit out from what many seem to regard as the most exciting matchups. I appreciate everyone offering an opinion when they have one so I can try to do what is in the best interest of all involved and still keep things fair. For the rest of this cup we will stick with the last decision I made and hopefully we can get some more opinions and talk on this matter some more for a better rule next year.
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