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[CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Commander9 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:54 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:I am not bashing your opinion. Just trying to state the opinions on the other side of the fight. I understand your opinion and like I have said before, kind of agree with it. My only sympathy comes from the longevity of this event and how long it is forcing some players to sit out from what many seem to regard as the most exciting matchups. I appreciate everyone offering an opinion when they have one so I can try to do what is in the best interest of all involved and still keep things fair. For the rest of this cup we will stick with the last decision I made and hopefully we can get some more opinions and talk on this matter some more for a better rule next year.


I'm perfectly fine with - furthermore, since the event has entered it's latter stages, usually executive decisions such as this are not applied until the next tournament. I would gladly have more discussions on this subject, but as you have pretty much inferred, this is a CCup 2 thread. Are there any possibilities that we could have the thread for the 3rd one where we would discuss our plans for the competition?
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby nippersean on Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:03 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:I understand your point of view josko and for the most part I agree with it. However, there were many more posts who disagreed with our point of view than agreed with it. Most felt that this is an online game for entertainment purposes and we shouldn't have legitimate players who switch clans forced to sit out for 1-2 months (or more). I would like a hard and fast rule, but I understand people's point of view saying these people should not be forced to sit out.

I don't like having to make decisions on a case by case basis either because it can result in bias whether it be intentional or not. That is why I hope most here trust that I will read all posts regarding any matter and make a sound decision that I feel is in the best interest for all involved and fairness in the cup. All discussions where I am considering not letting someone play will be public and I will eventually give a solid reasoning either way.

Hopefully this matter can be discussed more either here or in public and we can come up with a better solution for future tournaments.

P.S. I forgot to do it before, but game lines have been updated on 2nd post. I tried to figure out a way to show the score of each matchup on the bracket but the program I am using won't let me do it... :-s


Chuck you run the best tourny on CC. Be careful not to set yourself up here. A case by case basis is serious shit, avoid it.
Check C&A for proof and some of them get paid for it.
Rules are rules, and KORT vs TOFU proved it, and you'll get a big backlash you don't need if you change them mid-term.

One of the rules is - clans can decide before the match certain things. Maybe this is a get-out re players moving clans. i.e Pasca certainly isn't a ringer, he's a member of THOTA and only played in the CC FOED games that had all ready started, the others were remade I think.

I know that I would not object if Pasc was in the other team if we meet them, because I know the circumstances.

But Chuck, please be careful if you take it upon yourself to judge, that's a crappy job right there that you don't need

Edit - I got about 4 times fastposted right there
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Namor on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:23 pm

It isn't practical to ask a player to sit out best part of a year. I firmly believe that the best solution is to cup-tie a player for just the one round, following his last involvement. This would stop anyone from jumping ship for any reason other than a legitimate one and would make it more difficult for the handful of players that hire themselves out as mercenaries.

I also think the rule would need to state that a player is cup-tied, only if his previous clan is still in existence. Otherwise, we could find a situation where a clan plays in round 1, then disbands, which would leave all of it's members being ineligible for their new clans.

I think the rule could easily be enforced from now, as the only person effected by it (in this round), is Pasca. Since the cup rules allow for the contesting clans to make changes that they both agree on, AoC (the only CLAN effected by it) are happy to change the rule during our tie with THOTA, to allow Pasca to face us.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jj3044 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:45 pm

Namor wrote:It isn't practical to ask a player to sit out best part of a year. I firmly believe that the best solution is to cup-tie a player for just the one round, following his last involvement. This would stop anyone from jumping ship for any reason other than a legitimate one and would make it more difficult for the handful of players that hire themselves out as mercenaries.

I also think the rule would need to state that a player is cup-tied, only if his previous clan is still in existence. Otherwise, we could find a situation where a clan plays in round 1, then disbands, which would leave all of it's members being ineligible for their new clans.

I think the rule could easily be enforced from now, as the only person effected by it (in this round), is Pasca. Since the cup rules allow for the contesting clans to make changes that they both agree on, AoC (the only CLAN effected by it) are happy to change the rule during our tie with THOTA, to allow Pasca to face us.


Actually, this affects EMPIRE as well, as we last month recruited 2 ex-MM members who played in the play-in round.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:00 pm

Welcome to the party KORT has last year when thebest712 came to KORT. Everybody can wait. If the player really wants to be in your clan he will gladly wait.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby L M S on Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:21 pm

I do not write this on behalf of FOED although I'm sure there are many in my clan that will agree with me (as will be many that do not).

I call bullshit on this entire stupid argument.

I say:
Let the man play!
For crying out loud let them all play.
If you want to switch clans every 30 days that's your own damn business.
If any one clan was regularly recruiting other clans' players for this purpose, the CC Court of public opinion would crucify them and pretty soon no clan would want said player.
Its shitty to HEAVILY/ACTIVELY recruit players from others clans but sometimes great players actually WANT to be a part of your clan; maybe its a better fit, maybe they have friends, maybe it's something they have always wanted, maybe they didn't like it where they were.
9 times out of 10 the grass ain't any greener for those that jump from clan to clan anyway (for either party); if you wanna leave your clan to just to get a CC Cup medal, then go, by all means go...your former clan will be better off without you, not to mention you are a shit-head for doing it. More than half the battle is learning your clanmates play and being able to compliment that while trusting them to do the same, and that shit doesn't happen overnight.

Maybe the overreaching rule should be that if you jump ship for the purpose of gaining a CC Cup Medal you have to stay in that clan for 2 years, no matter what, even if that clan folds you are fucked for two years then you don't play at all; same reason why you and I keep paying for shitty cell phone reception month after month, because you/I made a stupid decision.
Or maybe we shouldn't worry about it and concentrate, then execute, on our own devious plans to defeat the enemy while the other guy is busy 'recruiting' 'top' 'players'.


As far as Pasca goes, he didn't leave FOED to gain a CC Cup medal. THOTA was something he wanted a long time and when the opportunity came he took it, can't blame him for that. I know in his heart of hearts he misses us old drunks anyway AND the last thing he wants to do is face his old clan head to head....he knows better.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:57 pm

L M S wrote:I do not write this on behalf of FOED although I'm sure there are many in my clan that will agree with me (as will be many that do not).

I call bullshit on this entire stupid argument.

I say:
Let the man play!
For crying out loud let them all play.
If you want to switch clans every 30 days that's your own damn business.
If any one clan was regularly recruiting other clans' players for this purpose, the CC Court of public opinion would crucify them and pretty soon no clan would want said player.
Its shitty to HEAVILY/ACTIVELY recruit players from others clans but sometimes great players actually WANT to be a part of your clan; maybe its a better fit, maybe they have friends, maybe it's something they have always wanted, maybe they didn't like it where they were.
9 times out of 10 the grass ain't any greener for those that jump from clan to clan anyway (for either party); if you wanna leave your clan to just to get a CC Cup medal, then go, by all means go...your former clan will be better off without you, not to mention you are a shit-head for doing it. More than half the battle is learning your clanmates play and being able to compliment that while trusting them to do the same, and that shit doesn't happen overnight.

Maybe the overreaching rule should be that if you jump ship for the purpose of gaining a CC Cup Medal you have to stay in that clan for 2 years, no matter what, even if that clan folds you are fucked for two years then you don't play at all; same reason why you and I keep paying for shitty cell phone reception month after month, because you/I made a stupid decision.
Or maybe we shouldn't worry about it and concentrate, then execute, on our own devious plans to defeat the enemy while the other guy is busy 'recruiting' 'top' 'players'.


As far as Pasca goes, he didn't leave FOED to gain a CC Cup medal. THOTA was something he wanted a long time and when the opportunity came he took it, can't blame him for that. I know in his heart of hearts he misses us old drunks anyway AND the last thing he wants to do is face his old clan head to head....he knows better.
;)


Which is in line with the first position I posted:

It wasn't stated as a rule in thread 1. Chuuuck was very pronounced in stating that this year's rules had changed, so should be read carefully.

I read them carefully. I didn't see a rule where a player couldn't change clans. Saying it was omitted by accident is like, oh well, tough, these are the rules we all joined under.

When I had issues with one of the clan's LoW was opposing, constantly changing and missing and all sorts of things, the community feedback was: Discipline was not set up prior to the start of the war (even tho RULES were.)

So let's be consistent: a rule/disciplinary action that wasn't agreed on by all parties for this series, doesn't exist for this series.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:25 pm

nippersean's proposal seems to be an excellent solution, i.e. a player is eligible to play for his new clan on the basis there is no objection by the other side. This way any veto becomes a collective decision rather than putting all the onus on the TO (and is a new rule), thereby avoiding any contradiction of precedents set in CC1 where some players were excluded.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jackal31 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:30 pm

lets use this example:

In the round of 8/quarters, Clan A gets a player from an eliminated clan. Clan B says yea or nay regarding said member. Now, Clan A wins. Does Clan C get a new option? Or does Clan C have to deal with the resulting decision of Clan B?
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:42 pm

Clan C should also receive the same option, as there's every possibility the transferred player in question is somebody they have already played against (and beaten) in this edition of the cup.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:43 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:nippersean's proposal seems to be an excellent solution, i.e. a player is eligible to play for his new clan on the basis there is no objection by the other side. This way any veto becomes a collective decision rather than putting all the onus on the TO (and is a new rule), thereby avoiding any contradiction of precedents set in CC1 where some players were excluded.


Yeesh, I'd almost rather let Chuck deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Sure, it's nice to assume an honorable opposition, but that isn't always the case.

Personally, I think we should try and keep this as inclusive as possible. A couple people have used pro sports comparisons, which I loathe because they're simply not applicable. Trying to draw comparison between how professional leagues handle player movement and how we handle people changing clans here is ludicrous.

Generally speaking, I think the "player can change clans but have to sit out a round" concept is the far boundary of a hard-line on the issue. But I just don't think this concept of clan-stacking is really as big of an issue as we're making it out to be.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:48 pm

I too would find it very unlikely that there will be instances of clan stacking, so in truth it's not this scenario that I've had in mind. What would bother me is to have played against a clan who have heavily featured one star player who then leaves that clan and joins another who we are going to have to play against. Same player, same maps, same direction all over again? No thanks.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby pascalleke on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:44 am

Funny , did not know there was such a heated discussion going on here till jackal pointed this out :D

@Namor : thanks ;) i just hope i can give u and ur clan a good fight ^^
@LMS : yeah that was one of the hardest decision to make for me last year , never expected 2 things , 1. to meet those fine drunks like u guys and becoming a FOED , altough it was for a short while , ive never seen such a fine bunch of players and for me i love the most of u guys , tough break for the ones who do not love me ;) 2. me becoming a THOTA , yess indeed it was a hard battle and never expected getting in at a certain point , I even had given up on that . That things change in life , even unexpected was a good lesson for me , wich i use also in real life .
@ Chuuuuck: i agree on not to make it a case by case basis ruling but u also must realize some things are unique on its own , i can admit my case was. It was a case of many years and i would never had joind FOED if i had the knowledge wich i have now altough i am happy i met some of FOED .For me its clear wenn THOTA and FOED go final this CC cup i will not participate , would to me the most honourable thing to do ;) just a little fortune telling
@ Brucewar : u cant compare me to the best712 case , this is now and my case was really different , trust me on that ;)
@ all others : I cant speak for the other cases but sitting out a whole year is tough , sure a loyalty to a clan can be expected but as i said before u can only make ur assumptions for the full 100 % right if u are aware of the whole story , based on the stories by the particpants in those stories/cases ...and not on ur own experiences and as i call it "the past eyes where we all look through " .
I see some different things here ...players who leave a clan already eliminated , and players leave a clan still in the running, for the players leaving a clan still in the running a simpel rule could apply ; not play vs his old clan , most gentleman act to do! For the other players wich left an clan already eliminated ....well for the other players wich left an clan already out , think nippers idea is best here...Cant believe that many clans would exclude a player on that manner.
As for the Ringers , dont know if there where or are any ringers , but as already stated dont believe that group , if even excisted would not be that big ? And if so think they will be easily detected. Last thing : compare CC with sports leagues and also using their rules is really far stretched so indeed not usable. Lets keep it plain and simpel i say , life and CC is as complicated already :lol:
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jpcloet on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:26 pm

I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby pascalleke on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:35 pm

jpcloet wrote:I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.

Why seems there to be the need to punish such players ? :roll: Yeah to me and think to them all this limitation or missing a round can be seen as an punishment ....so i am very curious on the principal behind these suggestions.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jrh_cardinal on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:03 pm

pascalleke wrote:
jpcloet wrote:I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.

Why seems there to be the need to punish such players ? :roll: Yeah to me and think to them all this limitation or missing a round can be seen as an punishment ....so i am very curious on the principal behind these suggestions.

Eye rolling really doesn't help, everyone making suggestions is decreasing the "punishment" anyway, at the beginning of the discussion Chuck's stance was you can't play at all after changing clans, period. If you don't believe that, Chuck himself sat out round 1 so he could change clans and still play, obviously in his head that's what the rule was.

The principal is having a bunch of good players vacating their clan after they lose and joining another still in the Cup is not a good idea, not in the best interests of the tournament. It's not a punishment, you have your opportunity to play with FOED.
It's like a trade deadline (which is a pretty good analogy), in pro sports you have to keep the team that got you there in the playoffs as opposed to adding a bunch of All-Stars. The playoffs in any sport would be a joke if the Championship was basically one league's All-Star team against the others. No one in any pro sport complains they can't switch to a good team at the end of the season just because their team didn't make the playoffs. This is not tee-ball, not everyone is a winner, not every good player can play in the championship. You get there as a clan, you keep your same clan.

That's why the rule is in place, however your situation is different, which is why there is a discussion, and why the rule is probably changing so you can play. Just be careful before you eye roll your supporters again, a rule is being changed in your favor and you thank people by acting annoyed.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby pascalleke on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:09 am

jrh_cardinal wrote:
pascalleke wrote:
jpcloet wrote:I like the idea of missing a round, however, maybe you could limit the number of games. So instead of missing a round, a new transfer can only play X games in the next round.

Why seems there to be the need to punish such players ? :roll: Yeah to me and think to them all this limitation or missing a round can be seen as an punishment ....so i am very curious on the principal behind these suggestions.

Eye rolling really doesn't help, everyone making suggestions is decreasing the "punishment" anyway, at the beginning of the discussion Chuck's stance was you can't play at all after changing clans, period. If you don't believe that, Chuck himself sat out round 1 so he could change clans and still play, obviously in his head that's what the rule was.

The principal is having a bunch of good players vacating their clan after they lose and joining another still in the Cup is not a good idea, not in the best interests of the tournament. It's not a punishment, you have your opportunity to play with FOED.
It's like a trade deadline (which is a pretty good analogy), in pro sports you have to keep the team that got you there in the playoffs as opposed to adding a bunch of All-Stars. The playoffs in any sport would be a joke if the Championship was basically one league's All-Star team against the others. No one in any pro sport complains they can't switch to a good team at the end of the season just because their team didn't make the playoffs. This is not tee-ball, not everyone is a winner, not every good player can play in the championship. You get there as a clan, you keep your same clan.

That's why the rule is in place, however your situation is different, which is why there is a discussion, and why the rule is probably changing so you can play. Just be careful before you eye roll your supporters again, a rule is being changed in your favor and you thank people by acting annoyed.

For me that rolling eyes smiley was never interpreted as stating that i was annoyed , to me it is more expressing a whondering and a questioning , thats all. Put 10 people in a room , place a yellow coffee can on a table there. Ask those 10 different people to discribe that coffee pot , u will get 10 different discriptions. For the rest i am grateful those discussions come up , not only this one .And yep i admit i love using smileys , to me they always give replys a funny note to some what heavy discussions. So sorry i never intented to let u think i was annoyed and i believe my question was truly legit.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:39 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I too would find it very unlikely that there will be instances of clan stacking, so in truth it's not this scenario that I've had in mind. What would bother me is to have played against a clan who have heavily featured one star player who then leaves that clan and joins another who we are going to have to play against. Same player, same maps, same direction all over again? No thanks.


Since that "star player" can only play in 1/3 of the games, that "star player" isn't going to make or break an entire clan.

But, whether a player can PLAY or not, doesn't prevent any player from directing play on any map he or she wishes; it just takes someone letting that player look in on their password (if fog) - which is legal - then directing the play from the sidelines.

So, not letting a "star player" play doesn't eliminate the situation you fear anyway.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:02 pm

Time for another bracket update. 8-)
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Lubawski on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:58 pm

Incandenza wrote:Time for another bracket update. 8-)


That means THOTA officially move on. Not that you can tell without looking in detail at their locked thread. Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Incandenza on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:11 pm

Lubawski wrote:Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.


I dunno, I've been meaning to call Namor a fuckface for some time now. :lol:
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby NanoTheGreat on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Incandenza wrote:
Lubawski wrote:Let's hope for a more civil next round...which I think can be guaranteed.


I dunno, I've been meaning to call Namor a fuckface for some time now. :lol:


Hahahaha!!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby angola on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:57 pm

So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.
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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:06 am

angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.



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Re: [CC2] 2nd Annual Conqueror's Cup!!

Postby jrh_cardinal on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:23 am

angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.

Nope, not yet at least. We're still 20-19 over BOFM with 2 games still very undecided.

The rankings were okay, but I wouldn't go near spot on. #24 beat #9 for starters. No way that should happen in a 40 game challenge, and that's on the rankings, TFFS showed before this they're at least a top 20 clan.
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