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[CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [FINAL]

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [R1: Jan 1]

Postby donche64 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:08 pm

josko.ri wrote:How is it that we don't have match S&M vs LHDD in quarterfinals? S&M was seeded 5th and LHDD 4th, so I assume matches should be 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4-5.


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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby josko.ri on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:12 pm

You correctly used seeds #1-8 and #2-7 to play but incorrectly you made seeds #3-5 and seeds #4-6 to play in quarterfinals. it should be #3-6 and #4-5 instead. CCup was drawn with that format years before you came to the position of Clan Moderator, starting from CCup1.

I don't see a reason to change to #3-5 and #4-6 to play in quarterfinals, that means it is better to be 6th seeded than 5th seeded and also it is better to be 4th seeded than 3rd seeded because you get easier opponent in quarterfinals.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby rockfist on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:14 pm

I think the thing that confuses me is the #1 next to LOW, the #9 next to Fallen, and the #11 next to S&M. I follow the #2 next to us and the #3 next to TOP.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby macken on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:39 pm

Lindax wrote:
rockfist wrote:If you seed the clans, wouldn't it be 1v16 and the winner of that plays the winner of 8v9, ect?


That's not how I did it. From the OP:

There is a limit of 32 clans participating and 8 clans will be seeded. The finalists of CC6 will be the first 2 seeds, the other 6 will be based on the December F400 Clan Ranking. In case of byes, the higher seeds will get those. The rest of the bracket will be filled randomly.


I placed the 8 seeded clans in the bracket and filled the rest randomly. The 8 seeds were placed according to a system I have been using for years, I think I got it originally from how they place the seeds in the major tennis tournaments. Actually very close to what josko wrote above.

Again, there are many different ways to do it, I stuck to what I have used before.

Lx


Finalist of CC6: FALL and TOFU
F400 Dec 2016:
1. TOP
2. FALL
3. TOFU
4. LHDD
5. S&M
6. FOED
7. ATN
8. LOW

Then the first 8 for CC7 would be:

1. TOFU or FALL (who?)
2. FALL or TOFU
3. TOP
4. LHDD
5. S&M
6. FOED
7. ATN
8. LOW

Instead
1. LOW ??
2. TOFU ?
3. TOP
4. LHDD
5. FOED ??
6. RET ??
7. ATN
8. GON ??

Seems something are wrong...
Of course, if this is not correct, the rest of brackets would have to be redrawn as they are affected.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:03 pm

rockfist wrote:I think the thing that confuses me is the #1 next to LOW, the #9 next to Fallen, and the #11 next to S&M. I follow the #2 next to us and the #3 next to TOP.


Ignore the #'s on my (challonge) bracket. Basically, Lindax did his bracket (you can see his in a spoiler below the challonge one) and I used the drag / drop feature to get the bracket to correctly display the way his worked out. Made it easier then putting "bye1, bye2, bye3" in the challonge bracket.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby rockfist on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:06 pm

Ah ok I got it now thanks
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:19 pm

rockfist wrote:Ah ok I got it now thanks


I hide the #'s on the challonge bracket.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [R1: Jan 1]

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:30 pm

Bumping Prediction Info for the new page.

IcePack wrote:CC7 Prediction Challenge!

http://challonge.com/CCup7

For those who want to get your entries in early to enter the latest Prediction Challenge at the link above!
Prizes and further details will be included in the upcoming Platoon Report.

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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby grt on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:10 pm

Is it just me or can't we see what others have predicted? I thought we would be able to click on one of the other predictions but can't see where.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:20 pm

grt wrote:Is it just me or can't we see what others have predicted? I thought we would be able to click on one of the other predictions but can't see where.


Once all the predictions are gathered and the event starts, then the predictions become viewable.
But before that, they are hidden so people aren't copying off one another etc. and provides a more diverse
outlook / group of entries.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [R1: Jan 1]

Postby ScaryTeded on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:16 pm

IcePack wrote:Bumping Prediction Info for the new page.

IcePack wrote:CC7 Prediction Challenge!

http://challonge.com/CCup7

For those who want to get your entries in early to enter the latest Prediction Challenge at the link above!
Prizes and further details will be included in the upcoming Platoon Report.

Click image to enlarge.
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No Time for He said she said show it in the field with Honor and respect !!!
Have Fun .
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby PaulatPeace on Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:58 am

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The above 32 team bracket was taken from the web at the first site I came to. It is not mine. It is however what I am familiar with, and how the seeding that is done for many athletic events. It is also consistent with others I looked at on the web.

There is a clear logic that is demonstrated in the seeding which is designed to keep the ranked order of participants as far away from each other for as long as possible. Seed # 5 is in the top half of the bracket and seed # 6 is in the bottom half. 8 is in the top half. 7 is in the bottom half.

Based on seeding the top 8 clans on the Dec. F400 rankings and the 2 finalists from last year in the # 1 & 2 Seed positions...these would be the seeds:

1 - TOFU or Fall
2 - TOFU or Fall
3 - TOP
4 - LHDD
5 - S&M
6 - FOED
7 - ATN
8 - LOW

The original seeding done for the CC7 has the top 4 seeds in the proper relative positions based on this bracket. Even seeds 7 & 8 were in the proper top & bottom halves of the bracket. Seeds 5 & 6 however appear in the wrong halves of the bracket.

If seeds were placed in the bracket according to another system, I am not sure it is as logically sound.

Paul


I did a little more research and thought Wikipedia might be a useful unbiased resource. I found this information under "Seed":

Seed (sports)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also: Single-elimination tournament
A seed is a competitor or team in a sports or other tournament who is given a preliminary ranking for the purposes of the draw. Players/teams are "planted" into the bracket in a manner that is typically intended so that the best do not meet until later in the competition. The term was first used in tennis,[1] and is based on the idea of laying out a tournament ladder by arranging slips of paper with the names of players on them the way seeds or seedlings are arranged in a garden: smaller plants up front, larger ones behind.[2]

Contents [hide]
1 Tennis
2 Other sports
3 See also
4 References
Tennis[edit]
One version of seeding is where brackets are set up so that the quarterfinal pairings (barring any upsets) would be the 1 seed vs. the 8 seed, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6 and 4 vs. 5; however, this is not the procedure that is followed in most tennis tournaments, where the 1 and 2 seeds are placed in separate brackets, but then the 3 and 4 seeds are assigned to their brackets randomly, and so too are seeds 5 through 8, and so on.


You will note that although tennis seeding is done differently that most other sports...every seed other than #s 1 & 2 are "assigned to their brackets randomly...". The seeding done in the CC7 does not place seeds 3 - 8 in a random fashion as is done in tennis...but it also does not follow the typical seeding for tournaments which has the 5th seed in the top portion and the 6th seed in the bottom portion of the bracket. If you look at the Wikipedia entry for "seed" on the internet, you will see that their sample bracket has 5 in the top section and 6 in the lower section of the bracket also.

Paul
Last edited by PaulatPeace on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby benga on Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:31 am

see you in finals
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby donche64 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:32 am

PaulatPeace wrote:Tennis[edit]
One version of seeding is where brackets are set up so that the quarterfinal pairings (barring any upsets) would be the 1 seed vs. the 8 seed, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6 and 4 vs. 5; however, this is not the procedure that is followed in most tennis tournaments, where the 1 and 2 seeds are placed in separate brackets, but then the 3 and 4 seeds are assigned to their brackets randomly, and so too are seeds 5 through 8, and so on.



Actually, I think this is what Lindax did: placing 1 and 2 in separate brackets, then 3 and 4 in the two remaining ones.

Then he assigned randomly seeds 5 through 8. What disturbed josko was the fact that you had 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7, and not 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5 => random effect.

Now let's all have fun!
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby PaulatPeace on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:00 am

donche64 wrote:
PaulatPeace wrote:Tennis[edit]
One version of seeding is where brackets are set up so that the quarterfinal pairings (barring any upsets) would be the 1 seed vs. the 8 seed, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6 and 4 vs. 5; however, this is not the procedure that is followed in most tennis tournaments, where the 1 and 2 seeds are placed in separate brackets, but then the 3 and 4 seeds are assigned to their brackets randomly, and so too are seeds 5 through 8, and so on.



Actually, I think this is what Lindax did: placing 1 and 2 in separate brackets, then 3 and 4 in the two remaining ones.

Then he assigned randomly seeds 5 through 8. What disturbed josko was the fact that you had 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7, and not 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5 => random effect.

Now let's all have fun!


Greetings My Friend,

This is a direct quote from the CC7 Format explanation:

There is a limit of 32 clans participating and 8 clans will be seeded. The finalists of CC6 will be the first 2 seeds, the other 6 will be based on the December F400 Clan Ranking. In case of byes, the higher seeds will get those. The rest of the bracket will be filled randomly.


Based on this...the top 8 seeds were not supposed to be "random" as you suggested.

This is an earlier quote from Lindax:

I placed the 8 seeded clans in the bracket and filled the rest randomly. The 8 seeds were placed according to a system I have been using for years, I think I got it originally from how they place the seeds in the major tennis tournaments. Actually very close to what josko wrote above.


There appears to be a "system" that is used to assign seeding placement. It just isn't the standard one used in most athletic events...or in tennis tournaments either.

Yes. Lets have fun!

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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby Donelladan on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:26 am

Why does it matter who you face ? If S&M lose against TOP in quarter, it means they don't deserve the title. Doesn't matter that you lose in quarter or in finale, you lose at the end. Only 1st place matters.
And I find it way better that there is some randomization in the process.
I wished we got TOP earlier that the finale, because now we'll probably not have a chance to face them ( I don't see them coming to the finale :D ) but let's play and see.

Good luck everyone.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby macken on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:10 am

Donelladan wrote:Why does it matter who you face ? If S&M lose against TOP in quarter, it means they don't deserve the title. Doesn't matter that you lose in quarter or in finale, you lose at the end. Only 1st place matters.
And I find it way better that there is some randomization in the process.
I wished we got TOP earlier that the finale, because now we'll probably not have a chance to face them ( I don't see them coming to the finale :D ) but let's play and see.

Good luck everyone.


I'm not agreed. The order matters, and much.
That is why, it is usually taken into account when making the pairings.
In league all against all, this does not exist (There may be some advantages due to other factors, such as the moment in which the confrontation takes place, but it approaches 100% equality).

But in elimination rounds, it does not have the same value to reach the final with 4 rounds of more affordable opponents, while another comes after struggling with stronger rivals.
If that happens, the odds of a less strong team winning, or at least reaching a place of honor, are much greater.

Btw, Mini CUP format are ramdom.
It is a choice to make one or another format. For me it is fairer than the previous merits count, but ramdom are an option,... as we participate in the first Mini Cup (ramdom brackets) and we also win for our satisfaction.

Anyway, here we are not discussing which format to choose.
Here we are talking about a bad application of the method previously established.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby donche64 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:28 am

PaulatPeace wrote:
donche64 wrote:
PaulatPeace wrote:Tennis[edit]
One version of seeding is where brackets are set up so that the quarterfinal pairings (barring any upsets) would be the 1 seed vs. the 8 seed, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6 and 4 vs. 5; however, this is not the procedure that is followed in most tennis tournaments, where the 1 and 2 seeds are placed in separate brackets, but then the 3 and 4 seeds are assigned to their brackets randomly, and so too are seeds 5 through 8, and so on.



Actually, I think this is what Lindax did: placing 1 and 2 in separate brackets, then 3 and 4 in the two remaining ones.

Then he assigned randomly seeds 5 through 8. What disturbed josko was the fact that you had 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7, and not 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5 => random effect.

Now let's all have fun!


Greetings My Friend,

This is a direct quote from the CC7 Format explanation:

There is a limit of 32 clans participating and 8 clans will be seeded. The finalists of CC6 will be the first 2 seeds, the other 6 will be based on the December F400 Clan Ranking. In case of byes, the higher seeds will get those. The rest of the bracket will be filled randomly.


Based on this...the top 8 seeds were not supposed to be "random" as you suggested.

This is an earlier quote from Lindax:

I placed the 8 seeded clans in the bracket and filled the rest randomly. The 8 seeds were placed according to a system I have been using for years, I think I got it originally from how they place the seeds in the major tennis tournaments. Actually very close to what josko wrote above.


There appears to be a "system" that is used to assign seeding placement. It just isn't the standard one used in most athletic events...or in tennis tournaments either.

Yes. Lets have fun!

Paul


I think that we are in fact saying the same thing, but you're an English Native speaker and I'm not, so I'm explaining myself poorly:
- I Definitely agree with the part where you're talking about the selection of the 8 seeded clans: I wasn't talking about their selection, but their repartition
- Agreed also that this is not the standard repartition.

Hope we'll have an opportunity to face you, cuz I still don't accept the 14-2 in CL7 (and it would mean that we are both in finals!)

Leggooo
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby donche64 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:33 am

Btw thanks Lindax for running all those stuff!
Last edited by donche64 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby Lindax on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:54 am

I have read all your comments about the seeding. I can see some merit in josko's remarks and I will look into it for CC8.

Thanks,

Lx
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby PaulatPeace on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:13 am

Donelladan wrote:Why does it matter who you face ? If S&M lose against TOP in quarter, it means they don't deserve the title. Doesn't matter that you lose in quarter or in finale, you lose at the end. Only 1st place matters.
And I find it way better that there is some randomization in the process.
I wished we got TOP earlier that the finale, because now we'll probably not have a chance to face them ( I don't see them coming to the finale :D ) but let's play and see.

Good luck everyone.


Hey Brother,

I agree...if you are the best...you are the best...and who you face when and where should not matter. However, when you have a number of good clans that could theoretically win the tournament given the right circumstances, then separating them from each other for a long as possible is a practice designed to prevent some clan winning a match by circumstance rather than skill.

The point I was making is that it would be nice if there were a standard practice that was disclosed from the beginning, and then followed exactly. If it is random...ok, then random. If it is seeding the top 8 and random for the rest...ok! The problem here is there appears to be a method of seeding the top 8 that is not an established standard. If an established standard of seeding is not used, then there will be doubt about it's validity...and questions about motive.

Paul


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
donche64 said:

I think that we are in fact saying the same thing, but you're an English Native speaker and I'm not, so I'm explaining myself poorly:
- I Definitely agree with the part where you're talking about the selection of the 8 seeded clans: I wasn't talking about their selection, but their repartition
- Agreed also that this is not the standard repartition.

Hope we'll have an opportunity to face you, cuz I still don't accept the 14-2 in CL7 (and it would mean that we are both in finals!)

Leggooo


I agree Brother!

I also do not accept 14 -2 as any indication of how good you guys are. Let's both make it to the finals and face each other there. That would be great!

Thanks again!

Paul
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby Keefie on Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:36 pm

It is what it is guys. The draw has been made.
Ditch the Turd on November 3rd

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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby PaulatPeace on Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:16 pm

Keefie wrote:It is what it is guys. The draw has been made.


Yep!

The tournament hasn't started yet....and it could be corrected....but I figured it wouldn't be!

Thanks anyway!

GL to everyone!

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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby Keefie on Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:29 pm

PaulatPeace wrote:
Keefie wrote:It is what it is guys. The draw has been made.


Yep!

The tournament hasn't started yet....and it could be corrected....but I figured it wouldn't be!

Thanks anyway!

GL to everyone!

Paul


There is nothing to correct.

Thanks.
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Re: [CC7] Conquerors Cup VII Main Thread [Enter Predictions

Postby josko.ri on Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:48 pm

I would also like to see it corrected. No need to redo the whole draw but just manually change #5 and #6 seed in the draw to be it proper that #5 plays #4 and #6 plays #3 in quarterfinals.

I also think it can be changed before the tournament is started.

But I know that Lindax's word is final on this issue.
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