Conquer Club

.... I guess it's because Ice is willing to do the work of putting together the data, but I still don't understand why we even bother at all with these ultra-opinionated rankings based on inconsistent speculations and feelings.

Foxglove wrote:.... I guess it's because Ice is willing to do the work of putting together the data, but I still don't understand why we even bother at all with these ultra-opinionated rankings based on inconsistent speculations and feelings.

Because they may give a better insight into the abilities of clans before the actual results prove what could already have been expected.
(so theoretically it could have provided a better picture to an observer of where the likes of Atl & Ace stand before they achieved the weight necessary to appear on the F400, or indeed other myriad examples)

Indeed, even our ranking may be overinflated once we appear on the F400 because of the lower sample size (and as has happened with other with new clans before) until it solidifies into a broader base, and so where perhaps the coaches poll could still provide a clearer picture.


However, if instead the votes are only based on historic data as Bruce uses them, then perhaps the F400 provides a greater analysis & the Coaches Poll becomes surplus to requirements.

Dako wrote:LoW stole our dice! We will lose like 3-10 there, disastrous.

Yup, they aren't mean mugs either so we'll face stern tests in all three of our current encounters with them!

IcePack wrote:11. FALL - Dropped due to others overtaking them, not so much their play. They did have an early exit in CC4 though.

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This made me chuckle, due to the random method of opponent selection we faced ATL first round, which you've ranked 6th and have made it to Final 8 of CC4. That might explain the "early exit"

Even if CC4 was pure seeding based on F400, could you still have avoided them? Heck, being unranked at that point I guess there was still a good chance we'd have faced Afos early either way.

Leehar wrote:

Foxglove wrote:.... I guess it's because Ice is willing to do the work of putting together the data, but I still don't understand why we even bother at all with these ultra-opinionated rankings based on inconsistent speculations and feelings.

Because they may give a better insight into the abilities of clans before the actual results prove what could already have been expected.
(so theoretically it could have provided a better picture to an observer of where the likes of Atl & Ace stand before they achieved the weight necessary to appear on the F400, or indeed other myriad examples)

Indeed, even our ranking may be overinflated once we appear on the F400 because of the lower sample size (and as has happened with other with new clans before) until it solidifies into a broader base, and so where perhaps the coaches poll could still provide a clearer picture.


However, if instead the votes are only based on historic data as Bruce uses them, then perhaps the F400 provides a greater analysis & the Coaches Poll becomes surplus to requirements.

Dako wrote:LoW stole our dice! We will lose like 3-10 there, disastrous.

Yup, they aren't mean mugs either so we'll face stern tests in all three of our current encounters with them!

IcePack wrote:11. FALL - Dropped due to others overtaking them, not so much their play. They did have an early exit in CC4 though.

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This made me chuckle, due to the random method of opponent selection we faced ATL first round, which you've ranked 6th and have made it to Final 8 of CC4. That might explain the "early exit"

Even if CC4 was pure seeding based on F400, could you still have avoided them? Heck, being unranked at that point I guess there was still a good chance we'd have faced Afos early either way.

I think its more than just because I'm willing to put in the work, I think opinions are an important part of clans. Whether your rank says it or not, some people have opinions of certain clans that don't necessarily reflect that of the "results". Thats where rankings such like this come into play. Whether its a new top level clan (ATL / ACE) or get a bunch of new top level players, sometimes there's a need for an opinionated evaluation of a clan that isn't reflected on stats. Now, I don't think this sort of rating system is for everyone (clearly, as fox pointed out) however I do think there's sufficient reason and interest in this ranking to keep it going, even if its just for some of the clan leadership(s).
Some may vote more results based (such as bruce implied) others based more on speculation of future results, but thats why its opinions.

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If CC4 was purely seeded based on F400, similar to CC3 FALL would have faced off vs TLW. Would we have avoided playing ATL? Possibly, possibly not. Depends on where they landed on the random play in for unranked clans and which quadrant they would have gone into, but we wouldn't have faced them first round. Thus, the idea of us "having an early exit" in CC4 somehow reflecting as a lower than desireable result, was what made me chuckle when the first round in our case was more like a Final 8 match up (two top 10 clans meeting) then anything else in the past for first round.

IcePack wrote:10 votes 100% entered. So far these clans have voted:
FALL
KORT
ATN
ROTS
RET
G1
VVV
PACK
HH
ACE

New submissions from:
ATL
LEG
LOW
OSA

I've always been fond of this type of poll, simply for the reason it should reflect potential rather than past performance. The F400 & F41 are results-based, whereas this poll affords the opportunity to look at clans' recent acquisitions, mergers, etc and vote accordingly.

It's the distinction between a seeding system and the odds offered by a bookmaker, the two often not being in sync.

Chariot of Fire wrote:I've always been fond of this type of poll, simply for the reason it should reflect potential rather than past performance. The F400 & F41 are results-based, whereas this poll affords the opportunity to look at clans' recent acquisitions, mergers, etc and vote accordingly.

It's the distinction between a seeding system and the odds offered by a bookmaker, the two often not being in sync.

That totally makes sense. I think my issues are with the people performing the rankings, rather than the concept of the system itself. My first issue with it is that I don't believe everyone is creating their rankings with those ideas in mind, and my second issue is that I don't think that the majority of people who might submit rankings have the breadth of knowledge and awareness of the top 25 clans and the 600ish players in them (assuming ~25 players per clan) to create any kind of reasonably consistent or accurate output.

Agree wholeheartedly Foxy. When Blitz started this exercise a few years back it used to take me days to research the info in order to do the job properly. I suggested back then that each clan should post a résumé so that voters could easily identify each clan's strengths. To do the exercise correctly takes a lot of time, yet I don't think there are many that will go to such lengths. I doubt I will this time either. I know where to rank about half a dozen clans with whom I'm familiar, but will probably end up resorting to the F400 to fill in the gaps with those clans whose potential I'm really unfamiliar with. Depends how much time I have on my hands, but I won't rush into this.

Foxglove wrote:

Chariot of Fire wrote:I've always been fond of this type of poll, simply for the reason it should reflect potential rather than past performance. The F400 & F41 are results-based, whereas this poll affords the opportunity to look at clans' recent acquisitions, mergers, etc and vote accordingly.

It's the distinction between a seeding system and the odds offered by a bookmaker, the two often not being in sync.

That totally makes sense. I think my issues are with the people performing the rankings, rather than the concept of the system itself. My first issue with it is that I don't believe everyone is creating their rankings with those ideas in mind, and my second issue is that I don't think that the majority of people who might submit rankings have the breadth of knowledge and awareness of the top 25 clans and the 600ish players in them (assuming ~25 players per clan) to create any kind of reasonably consistent or accurate output.

Bang on! But it seems to me perhaps this poll is one way that people may become more familiar with clans potential vs f400 ranking.

While few will actually do much checking prior to the poll, any clan whose position here is substantially different than the f400 will generate a lot of curiosity and investigating as to why.

The LoW win is official, if anyone wants to take that into account in their votes.

*cough cough bruce cough cough*
Although if you want to wait until it gets included in f400, thats another matter

Leehar wrote:The LoW win is official, if anyone wants to take that into account in their votes.

*cough cough bruce cough cough*
Although if you want to wait until it gets included in f400, thats another matter

I feel like your body of work is too small. I left you off my ballot because I'm just not sure if you guys will be any good...

TSM vote coming, still have 19 hours till the deadline and don't want to rush

Working on this.

18 Clans Voted:
FALL
KORT
ATN
ROTS
ACE
RET
G1
VVV
PACK
HH
LEG
ATL
LOW
OSA
TSM
MD
MM
LHDD

Nice job Ice, thank you.

Sorry for not submitting a TOFU ranking. Christmas, family, mid-challenge and whatnot.

All the best to you for 2014.

CoF

No problem + thanks!

Is this done for? I'm interested in seeing how people's perception of ACE has changed now that we're in the f400.

The next one will be 6.1.14

IcePack wrote:The next one will be 6.1.14

Wasn't it once every 3 months?

Leehar wrote:

IcePack wrote:The next one will be 6.1.14

Wasn't it once every 3 months?

Yes

Didnt we miss march? Just wondering my memory is getting worst year by year (like my english skills and my paunch)

LEQUEEN wrote:Didnt we miss march? Just wondering my memory is getting worst year by year (like my english skills and my paunch)

Yes we did

Who's the favorite to be #1 on the new poll, ACE or TOFU? TOFU has more history/name recognition, but ACE leads the f400. The nail biter in the Conquer Cup doesn't really help either; it looks like it's headed to a tiebreaker.

Anyone interested in trying to revive this?

JPlo64 wrote:Anyone interested in trying to revive this?

I would give a ranking if ur willing to do the work but am not interested in running it again right now.