Clan Medals

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Re: Clan Medals

Postby MrBenn on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:44 pm

What will happen about clans that have since disbanded? Will medals be awarded retrospectively for the members of a clan that won a war, even if the clan no longer exists?

edit: cough, Eternal Empire v Divine Domination
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Night Strike on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:50 pm

The minimum should be 40 games. There is no reason there should be a 1-game difference between privileges and medals. A 10-game difference would at least make some logical sense, but 1-game just seems to be there to be annoying. The 40-game rule and that there must be a winner should suffice. The only reason the single game is thrown in there is to avoid ties, but the other rule already covers it. If clans tie, they either break the tie and get medals or let it stand and not get medals.


I'm glad you didn't put a minimum percentage of types of team games on the requirements, but single games shouldn't have been thrown out. Put in stipulations such as only 10% of the points, 5-game minimum per point, and no player can play in more than one series and it will suffice as a component of a clan war. There are always key 1v1 match-ups in any major team sport, so there's no reason to outright ban them here.


Minimum games per player and winning one game look good.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:56 pm

MrBenn wrote:What will happen about clans that have since disbanded? Will medals be awarded retrospectively for the members of a clan that won a war, even if the clan no longer exists?

edit: cough, Eternal Empire v Divine Domination


The short answer is yes, if they meet all the criteria for wars and players. We do have a few wars where the documentation is a little poor, but overall I knew the clans well enough to know who was with whom and when. I did quietly correct some of the war threads, and did contact 2 or 3 clans to locate game numbers that may have been missing or not updated. Plus by linking teammates in games, you get to the clans be process of elimination. All analysis has several points of reconciliation and game spots by each clan is one of them, as well as comparing actual games vs the total score etc.

It is not mentioned above, but medals will be issued out historically, and chronologically based on the war and work done.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Master Fenrir on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:29 pm

Is this medal being awarded for the matchups in the Cup?
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby ljex on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:31 pm

Master Fenrir wrote:Is this medal being awarded for the matchups in the Cup?


I would think yes and no, yes for those with more than 41 games
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby patrickaa317 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:41 pm

Perhaps a dumb question as I am fairly new to the clan side of CC. Are there ever multi-team wars? And how do the medals work around that?

Is it 40 games total or 40 games per team?

Clan A v Clan B v Clan C.

Set up for 42 games, 14 home games, 7 against each rival.

War is more than 40 games but each clan plays 28.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:42 pm

ljex wrote:
Master Fenrir wrote:Is this medal being awarded for the matchups in the Cup?


I would think yes and no, yes for those with more than 41 games


Another short answer of yes for those of the minimum size; some discussion has been had in the CLA around penalties and forfeits etc. so a decision on one of the matches has not yet been made. The CD's will cross that road when we get to issuing medals around the one on everyone's mind.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:44 pm

patrickaa317 wrote:Perhaps a dumb question as I am fairly new to the clan side of CC. Are there ever multi-team wars? And how do the medals work around that?

Is it 40 games total or 40 games per team?

Clan A v Clan B v Clan C.

Set up for 42 games, 14 home games, 7 against each rival.

War is more than 40 games but each clan plays 28.


That has not happened yet. If there are ever non-standard wars/events/challenges the clans involved will need to seek council from the Clan Directors.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Leehar on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:54 pm

jpcloet wrote:
ljex wrote:
Master Fenrir wrote:Is this medal being awarded for the matchups in the Cup?


I would think yes and no, yes for those with more than 41 games


Another short answer of yes for those of the minimum size; some discussion has been had in the CLA around penalties and forfeits etc. so a decision on one of the matches has not yet been made. The CD's will cross that road when we get to issuing medals around the one on everyone's mind.

And obviously it also depends on if the 1v1 games restriction is released.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Timminz on Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:01 pm

Keeping 1v1 out entirely is too much, in my opinion. As long as each 1v1 "game" is actually a best-of series (5, ideally), and the maximum allowable is not too high (10-15% seems reasonable), I think 1v1 should not be a problem to allow.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Master Fenrir on Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:13 pm

jpcloet wrote:Another short answer of yes for those of the minimum size; some discussion has been had in the CLA around penalties and forfeits etc. so a decision on one of the matches has not yet been made. The CD's will cross that road when we get to issuing medals around the one on everyone's mind.

Just for the record, I wasn't trying to start trouble. I was wondering whether the battles of the first two rounds were "historical" enough to pass the 36 game rule, or if the current 41-game rule was being applied to them, in which case, only the semis and onward would be counted, if the Cup wars were to be counted at all. I wasn't referencing the war-that-shall-not-be-named. It was a question of where the cut-off is for historical/current, if the dividing line was now, the creation of the medal, or some other point.

Sorry, my initial question could have been a lot more precise.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Dako on Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:06 pm

War-that-shall-not-be-named. That's a good one.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:11 pm

Few things...

1. 1 vs 1 games should be allowed.
2. 41 games kills many historical great battles, which were 40 games.
3. Having to win a game is semi backwards. Yeah sure it would be good to win, but if someone plays and their clan wins then should not matter how many they won or lost.
4. This whole participation level stuff is rather lame if you ask me. Anybody who takes part in the winning side of a war should be getting a medal. If someone only plays 5 games in your example then they would be out? Seems backwards if you ask me. As long as they play in 1 game win or lose, they should be getting one. That is the whole "team" aspect. In American football the kicker does not play every play, rather sometimes only 1 play per game. That 1 play could be the game winner.




I would just like to say this a good step in getting clans in the right direction as far as CC goes. We as clans have been growing and if the admin thinks this will help more, then more power to them.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:21 pm

Bruceswar wrote:Few things...

1. 1 vs 1 games should be allowed.
2. 41 games kills many historical great battles, which were 40 games.
3. Having to win a game is semi backwards. Yeah sure it would be good to win, but if someone plays and their clan wins then should not matter how many they won or lost.
4. This whole participation level stuff is rather lame if you ask me.


1. That will be discussed further and there are a couple of options
2. Historical wars are 36 points and above, going forward is 41. There are over 100 historical wars getting medals.
3. Based on the win% discussion in the CLA, this is the lowest we are willing to go. This was a huge compromise to the original proposal and subsequent ones. In order for a clan to win, they need to win games, if you can't win a single game, then you have not contributed. This is way more than fair and won't be changed.
4. Then you don't agree with upper limits than as well? The minimum is 3 games regardless which is similar to a simple 16 bracket 1v1 tournament. It also works well for freemiums even though they make up very little of the clan population. This formula is very generous and should be easy to achieve. We will give this some time, but this is unlikely to change. I will put this on the future consideration/discussion list.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby RiskTycoon on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:34 pm

that would be someone like me who plays very few games in our challenges (yes.... most of the time under 3 games) but we have never lost... so i would receive no medal? :lol: just silly... that makes them pointless and pretty much a waste of valuable time that could be used to focus on something more constructive..... in my eyes anyway ......

but hey..... you go boy!

i may even get one or two medals but that wont change my mind....
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Chuuuuck on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:44 pm

I know everyone is saying it but I just want to agree that 1v1 should be allowed.

All in all, good addition.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:51 pm

Nice medal,i hope that i help a little with mine suggestion =D>

Now lets try to help with these formulation.
A War must be of a minimum 41 games, and must have a specific defined process for determining a winner, prior to the start of the War. A random triples neutral game is recommended.


Change these into
A War must be of a minimum 40+1 games(in a case of tiebreak,minimum one game need to decide winner for clan medal), and must have a specific defined process for determining a winner, prior to the start of the War. A random triples neutral game is recommended.


Mine english its not great,but you get picture,what will solve these 41 game problem.
Move to another part of forum where mine help its need. ;)
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby laughingcavalier on Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:14 pm

Great to see clan wars being recognised - well done jp.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:23 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Few things...

1. 1 vs 1 games should be allowed.
2. 41 games kills many historical great battles, which were 40 games.
3. Having to win a game is semi backwards. Yeah sure it would be good to win, but if someone plays and their clan wins then should not matter how many they won or lost.
4. This whole participation level stuff is rather lame if you ask me.


1. That will be discussed further and there are a couple of options
There is only one option. To Allow 1 vs 1 games if clans want them. In general clans will only play a max of 2 per side, so not a giant percentage
2. Historical wars are 36 points and above, going forward is 41. There are over 100 historical wars getting medals.
This is a good point to know. This also makes for some odd dealings as now wars which used to be 40 games will now have to offer an odd 41st game. The map picking / settings could be a real sticking point for some clans.
3. Based on the win% discussion in the CLA, this is the lowest we are willing to go. This was a huge compromise to the original proposal and subsequent ones. In order for a clan to win, they need to win games, if you can't win a single game, then you have not contributed. This is way more than fair and won't be changed.
If your team wins in any sport, you get a ring, medal, or whatever as long as you were part of the team. In terms of CC, you should at least play a game to be able to get a medal on the winning team. Win or lose makes no difference as you were on the winning side of the match.
4. Then you don't agree with upper limits than as well? The minimum is 3 games regardless which is similar to a simple 16 bracket 1v1 tournament. It also works well for freemiums even though they make up very little of the clan population. This formula is very generous and should be easy to achieve. We will give this some time, but this is unlikely to change. I will put this on the future consideration/discussion list.
Upper limits are needed, but lower limits are just flat out ridiculous. There have been a ton of wars where people have only played 2 or 3 games in a 60 game challenge. It does not make them less of a teammate because they did so. In fact I am fairly sure that the THOTA vs LoW war has many people who would not qualify using those numbers. The number is around 5 games, so guys like aafitz would be out from this medal. That just does not seem right to me.



Overall a good thing we have medals, but it will need some tweaking before it is really what clan members want. Weather we can get all we want is another story. Anyhow thanks for getting this pushed through.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Kinnison on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:24 am

Suggestion for all worried about the 41st game. just make the challenge 42 games, with pre-agreed tiebreaker if needed.

My comments/objections:

must have a specific defined process for determining a winner, prior to the start of the War. A random triples neutral game is recommended.

The game composition must comprise 100% Team Games. Recommended setup is 25% Doubles, 25% Triples, 25% Quadruples and 25% Choice of Team Games


Two things about these.
Suppose it's a 46-point war... each side making 2 5x(1v1), 10 dubs, 10 trips, 1 quad?
1>It's 42 team games... +20 games/4 points of 1v1. by the rules above, even though it's 42 team games, it's not 100% team, and would be ruled ineligible. Which, frankly, would be BS.
2> It's nowhere near your "recommended setup". Suppose you remove the 1v1s, and add the "suggested" tiebreaker. it's now 42 legal games, but not a format the CDs "like". Would THAT get a medal?

I bring these ideas up to generate thought about them in the mind of the CDs. I want you to consider the consequences of ruling against 1v1s completely. If you MUST hate on them, insist that a valid challenge consist of a minimum 41 points, minimum 40 from TEAM GAMES.

I also am very disturbed by the "Recommendation" for setup and tiebreaker. This feels like the cookie-cutter challenge mold is coming down on us again. That may not be the intent, but it's certainly how it sounds to me.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Dako on Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:15 am

I tend to agree about game-limit and winning part of the match. If you have a big friendly clan of 30 members - I doubt each of them can play 3 games per war. And the thing about "winning" a game - that doesn't matter as well.

You can run 2 more polls and see that all the community will vote for medals for the whole participating teammates (and not because we want more medals).
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby RiskTycoon on Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:28 am

Dako wrote:You can run 2 more polls and see that all the community will vote for medals for the whole participating teammates (and not because we want more medals).


that is why it seems silly to me... either give them to everyone in the clan or don't waste your time. If the team wins everyone gets a ring..... even the player that sat on the bench the whole season.

if i said to my clan members that my 2 wins didn't do squat in the grand scheme of things I know they would all jump down my throat and tell me otherwise ..... it's called teamwork and camaraderie. so when you say " and not because we want more medals" you are 100% right. it's not. i have no thirst for medals anyway.......
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Major RiskTycoon
 
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:45 am

I must say that i agree,that these thing abouth win a game to get medal, its not need, but other part to play games to get medal, i agree.
Some Clans have big number of players,but half of then dont play games, and then they deserve to get medal? For what? If you dont bother to play at least 3 game in chalenge of 40 games, then you are not interesting to play in clan chalenges. You have enough spots in one chalenge that even with 35 members,everybody can easy play 3 games. I think that these need to be strictly rules, or some players will get many clan medals for inactivity,and these will not be ok to other players who are very active in clan chalenges.
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Major Qwert
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:39 am

Kinnison wrote:I also am very disturbed by the "Recommendation" for setup and tiebreaker. This feels like the cookie-cutter challenge mold is coming down on us again. That may not be the intent, but it's certainly how it sounds to me.


There will be recommendations all over the handbook soon and is primarily meant to guide new clans who have never been in a challenge. It is simply a recommendation.
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Captain jpcloet
 
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:52 am

RiskTycoon wrote:that is why it seems silly to me... either give them to everyone in the clan or don't waste your time. If the team wins everyone gets a ring..... even the player that sat on the bench the whole season.

if i said to my clan members that my 2 wins didn't do squat in the grand scheme of things I know they would all jump down my throat and tell me otherwise ..... it's called teamwork and camaraderie. so when you say " and not because we want more medals" you are 100% right. it's not. i have no thirst for medals anyway.......


Based on over a hundred challenges, this was a very minor issue. In most cases a player only had to play 1 extra game to receive a medal so this is very correctable going forward if clans so choose to manage their games and members. If you have not a thirst for a medal than this is not really an issue for you then.

If you want to have everyone on the team get a medal then they will still have to win at least one game and the clan community will need to consider a maximum roster size for each clan on the site around 15-20 members, and not just for wars, but their official roster. I didn't believe the clan community would like to go to clan roster limits based on the discussion in the CLA, so this is the best compromise around participation. Winning one game was actually a huge compromise to some of the original standards around win% by player.

When we hand out historical medals, if you feel you don't want one, let me know when you receive them and they can be removed if you so choose.
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