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Re: Clan Medals

Postby slowreactor on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:06 pm

Best. Update. Ever.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Kinnison on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:10 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Kinnison wrote:I also am very disturbed by the "Recommendation" for setup and tiebreaker. This feels like the cookie-cutter challenge mold is coming down on us again. That may not be the intent, but it's certainly how it sounds to me.


There will be recommendations all over the handbook soon and is primarily meant to guide new clans who have never been in a challenge. It is simply a recommendation.


So you address the *minor* linguistic issue, but fail to respond to the commentary about 1v1s being EXCLUDED from clan wars?
The game composition must comprise 100% Team Games.


Two clans could run a 70-game war... with only a single 1v1 per side, and it's excluded by that rule. I even gave you a fix for it, yet you failed to acknowledge.
If you MUST hate on them (1v1s), insist that a valid challenge consist of a minimum 41 points, minimum 40 from TEAM GAMES.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby patrickaa317 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:13 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Dako wrote:Also, counting who has won how many games will make it hard to manage and issue medals - giving them to all participants of the winning side will save a ton of clan directors volunteer time.


Thanks to a wonderful tournament script and a template I built in excel, this is easier to do than most think. Big props to Chipv who recently modified it to be more variable to the CD's needs.



So counting who has won how many games isn't really an issue as Dako mentioned, correct? I just don't think if someone doesn't win a game that they should be awarded a clan wars medal.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby ljex on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:23 pm

patrickaa317 wrote:
jpcloet wrote:
Dako wrote:Also, counting who has won how many games will make it hard to manage and issue medals - giving them to all participants of the winning side will save a ton of clan directors volunteer time.


Thanks to a wonderful tournament script and a template I built in excel, this is easier to do than most think. Big props to Chipv who recently modified it to be more variable to the CD's needs.



So counting who has won how many games isn't really an issue as Dako mentioned, correct? I just don't think if someone doesn't win a game that they should be awarded a clan wars medal.


personally i think this is a bit ridiculous, also the must participate in 3 games or whatever it was. It should be if you participate in 1 game win or lose you can get a medal if your clan wins. I assume this has to do with stopping medal hunting but to me the extra 2 games will just make medal hunters play those, and others who should get a medal not get one because they truly don't care and will only play a few games each war.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:35 pm

Kinnison wrote:So you address the *minor* linguistic issue, but fail to respond to the commentary about 1v1s being EXCLUDED from clan wars?


I've addressed the 1v1 several times already and there is a poll in this area as well as to guidance clans would like to go.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby patrickaa317 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:46 pm

ljex wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
jpcloet wrote:
Dako wrote:Also, counting who has won how many games will make it hard to manage and issue medals - giving them to all participants of the winning side will save a ton of clan directors volunteer time.


Thanks to a wonderful tournament script and a template I built in excel, this is easier to do than most think. Big props to Chipv who recently modified it to be more variable to the CD's needs.



So counting who has won how many games isn't really an issue as Dako mentioned, correct? I just don't think if someone doesn't win a game that they should be awarded a clan wars medal.


personally i think this is a bit ridiculous, also the must participate in 3 games or whatever it was. It should be if you participate in 1 game win or lose you can get a medal if your clan wins. I assume this has to do with stopping medal hunting but to me the extra 2 games will just make medal hunters play those, and others who should get a medal not get one because they truly don't care and will only play a few games each war.


Yeah and maybe even if you don't play in any games but the clan you are in wins, you should also get a medal. You can't get a tournament medal if you don't win a single game why should this medal be different?

Why should someone be rewarded with a medal if they didn't even contribute to the clan war by not being able to win a game? That would completely make this medal worthless in my eyes. It's just like a school giving trophy's to all little league teams even if the team completely sucked.

To me, a guy that doesn't play at all in a clan war helped my clan out more than a guy who lost all of his matchups. That guy was dead weight to the cause and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Kinnison on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:55 pm

jpcloet wrote:
Kinnison wrote:So you address the *minor* linguistic issue, but fail to respond to the commentary about 1v1s being EXCLUDED from clan wars?


I've addressed the 1v1 several times already and there is a poll in this area as well as to guidance clans would like to go.



My apologies for not being clear. Even BEFORE the poll, if the idea was to require 40 games, the ruling guideline could simply require 40 TEAM games. That's what I was suggesting. Clans could have all the 1v1 they wanted, and still meet the requirements. It's that pesky "100%" I'm objecting to. Oh, and I've voted in the poll.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:01 pm

12 medals all ready give?
and where is vote poll?
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jrh_cardinal on Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:13 pm

The CLA doesn't qualify under the 25% recommendation right now... just saying (and yes, I know they aren't challenges)
also, the 1v1 bit is crazy, I agree with everyone else with 10% max. The only reason to exclude them is to make it easier to count participation, so the 5 game 1v1 series doesn't count 5 times. Which brings me to
So in your example, someone going 5-0 doesn't get a medal? But someone going 1-6 does? Why not just make it whoever wins a game gets a medal, or even anyone that wins 2 games.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby barterer2002 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:06 pm

I suppose my objection here is the requirement that all clan challenges fit into a certain box. The idea that two clan cannot agree to a speed challenge or a freestyle challenge or even one that merely allowed these types of games seems unnecessarily restrictive in my opinion. I'm not sure why its necessary. While I realize that MOST clan challenges will weed out freestyle, manual and speed it doesn't seem either necessary or in keeping with the stated idea of "encouraging team play" to say that if these games exist within a challenge that such a challenge would automatically become non-medal worthy. Is what you're saying here that there aren't worthy team strategies in freestyle games? In manual? In speed? Because I would certainly disagree with that assessment or what you're saying that because you or I don't want to play in these types of games that we need to discourage others from doing so.

It seems to me that most challenges will weed out these formats due to agreements of the clans involved but, while I realize I'm a voice in the wilderness here because most won't care, I would contend that clans that include a broader spectrum of games in their challenges should not be penalized for doing so.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:36 pm

Quick update, about 28 wars have now been issued medals.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby ljex on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:41 pm

patrickaa317 wrote:
ljex wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
jpcloet wrote:
Dako wrote:Also, counting who has won how many games will make it hard to manage and issue medals - giving them to all participants of the winning side will save a ton of clan directors volunteer time.


Thanks to a wonderful tournament script and a template I built in excel, this is easier to do than most think. Big props to Chipv who recently modified it to be more variable to the CD's needs.



So counting who has won how many games isn't really an issue as Dako mentioned, correct? I just don't think if someone doesn't win a game that they should be awarded a clan wars medal.


personally i think this is a bit ridiculous, also the must participate in 3 games or whatever it was. It should be if you participate in 1 game win or lose you can get a medal if your clan wins. I assume this has to do with stopping medal hunting but to me the extra 2 games will just make medal hunters play those, and others who should get a medal not get one because they truly don't care and will only play a few games each war.


Yeah and maybe even if you don't play in any games but the clan you are in wins, you should also get a medal. You can't get a tournament medal if you don't win a single game why should this medal be different?

Why should someone be rewarded with a medal if they didn't even contribute to the clan war by not being able to win a game? That would completely make this medal worthless in my eyes. It's just like a school giving trophy's to all little league teams even if the team completely sucked.

To me, a guy that doesn't play at all in a clan war helped my clan out more than a guy who lost all of his matchups. That guy was dead weight to the cause and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.


Well theoretically you can win a tournament medal without winning a single game so that point is moot. Also joining a game and losing doesn't mean you didn't help your clan, you gave your clan the best chance to win on that map or you wouldn't be there. The dice/drops can determine games, and while they may average out in the long run its possible that in the 5 games you play you lose all of the despite making good moves. Especially if the other clan is making good moves as well. And the contribution is that of joining the game and representing your clan, not of winning the game. This game is not entirely skill so you can lose when you are the better team/player.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:43 pm

jpcloet wrote:1. That will be discussed further and there are a couple of options
2. Historical wars are 36 points and above, going forward is 41. There are over 100 historical wars getting medals.


Which doesn't make sense. Either it's 36 or 40 or 41, why 36 for last year and 41 for this year? Why not 36 for any year or 41 for any year or, as many said, "at least 40, and a clear winner" works.... for every year.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby jpcloet on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:52 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
jpcloet wrote:1. That will be discussed further and there are a couple of options
2. Historical wars are 36 points and above, going forward is 41. There are over 100 historical wars getting medals.


Which doesn't make sense. Either it's 36 or 40 or 41, why 36 for last year and 41 for this year? Why not 36 for any year or 41 for any year or, as many said, "at least 40, and a clear winner" works.... for every year.


Historical Awarding of Medals
Over the last 4 years, there have been clan wars of all sizes (3 games to 120 games) and formats. In defining which ones in the past will receive them, we looked at the average war size in each year and overall. The intention was to grant medals at that level, however, there were challenges only a few games less in some years, and a large war in 2010 raised the average. The most fair level was to look at median and there was a distinct cutoff point in all the years.

36 points was a very distinct median when looking at all history of wars. We started with 40 games on average, however there were a few wars with 36, 37,38,39 etc. and then we'd get well "why 40 but not 39". We had to draw a line and we did what we felt was fair.
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Re: Clan Medals

Postby patrickaa317 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:19 pm

ljex wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Yeah and maybe even if you don't play in any games but the clan you are in wins, you should also get a medal. You can't get a tournament medal if you don't win a single game why should this medal be different?

Why should someone be rewarded with a medal if they didn't even contribute to the clan war by not being able to win a game? That would completely make this medal worthless in my eyes. It's just like a school giving trophy's to all little league teams even if the team completely sucked.

To me, a guy that doesn't play at all in a clan war helped my clan out more than a guy who lost all of his matchups. That guy was dead weight to the cause and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.


Well theoretically you can win a tournament medal without winning a single game so that point is moot. Also joining a game and losing doesn't mean you didn't help your clan, you gave your clan the best chance to win on that map or you wouldn't be there. The dice/drops can determine games, and while they may average out in the long run its possible that in the 5 games you play you lose all of the despite making good moves. Especially if the other clan is making good moves as well. And the contribution is that of joining the game and representing your clan, not of winning the game. This game is not entirely skill so you can lose when you are the better team/player.



Can you give me an example of a tourney where it is 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 format where you could win a tournament without winning or beating someone? I evidently need to join more of those tourneys, I might have more than two trophys on my medal page.

If we had a 3 clan war, I would see the point. As far as your point about being selected as the best person to represent your team on that map, that is a mute point. A freemium cook could have stepped in and lost just as easily as anyone else. Just because your leader assigned you to represent that map doesn't mean you should get a medal.

And if you get medals for making good moves and not winning, why does the losing team of the clan war not get any medals? They could have also made good moves...

If all trophy's were handed to the better/team player, why even play? Why not just look at map ranks then? This could also at least make the 40th game of the war mean something (for a member to either get a medal or not).
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