and by the look of the sign up's so far there are probably others. I can't speak for the others but I feel totally disenfranchised by the whole sorry episode. The compromise that was reached and the patronising positive spin it was given, left a very bad taste in my mouth.
What would change my mind: A reduction in the number of seeds to 8. 16 is way too many for a tourney of this size.
Keefie
add aka to that list..
CONQUER CUP 2013 I have been keeping up to date with the forums.. including CD and friends...and from what I see this is a TOTAL SHIT-FIGHT DISASTER recommend we not join in protest of how this has been organized. IF there is anyone who is unhappy with this move, We can hold a vote in the clan forum (reply to EDDIE2,RAZORVICH, dorsettrob in a PM)....otherwise lets leave this one to the top clans that want to butt heads. EDDIE2 is working on an alternative structure that will be heaps better than what is on offer.
NEWCOMERS CUP Empire and AOC have merged. This means they can join this battle..........they are 2 seasoned top clans and I see them winning this... DO WE STAY IN ? Post any comments here: viewtopic.php?f=572&t=188102&p=4132308#p4132308
we have not recived any pms from any member of aka wishing to take part. and i hope this awnsers your question about if we have asked all clan members.
I was thinking the same thing shoop. Do away with all the play-in and bye hullabaloo and just make it an Open tournament to the top 32 clans. I wouldn't even bother with seeding, but I would place the 4 semi-finalists of the previous cup in different quadrants of the draw so they couldn't meet again until later in the tourney. It would be pretty mundane to play a clan in a final and then meet them again in R1 of the next cup edition, i.e. back-to-back challenges. Such a scenario should be avoided.
p.s. I play golf, but you don't see me playing in The Masters right now. That's because they'e invited the Top 93 in the world. Championship tournaments work this way.
Last edited by Chariot of Fire on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Highest position #5 (18 Nov 2010) General 4,380pts (11 Dec 2010)
QFT. Time to let bygones be bygones and go back to having fun.
This is all turning people off wanting to join up with clans because you all look like a bunch of bickering old biddies arguing over who has the nicest hairdo or some shit. That's how silly it looks.
and by the look of the sign up's so far there are probably others. I can't speak for the others but I feel totally disenfranchised by the whole sorry episode. The compromise that was reached and the patronising positive spin it was given, left a very bad taste in my mouth.
What would change my mind: A reduction in the number of seeds to 8. 16 is way too many for a tourney of this size.
Keefie
Are those clans not playing because of the seeded nature of it? Then I presume they would have also sat out on a traditional CC4, if it were run according to the rules of its predecessors.
FISO for one said we wouldn't when Dako said the seeding wasn't going to change before CDs took over, and only involved ourselves again when the possibility got re-opened. Can't speak for anyone else obviously.
Bruceswar wrote:1. For all those clans who are "boycotting" the event. I have to ask if you asked your clan if they would like to play or if this is just your knee jerk reaction to the situation. This is not meant as a slam on anybody, but sometimes we all need to step back a bit and take a deep breath and look again with a clearer head.
I really hope you're not thinking before you say this. Because it either means you think that Clan leaders don't bother asking their clan what they want, or Clan leaders actually don't bother asking what their clan wants. DBC obviously had a lengthy discussion about it before we decided not to participate, or our name would mean nothing.
Bruceswar wrote:2. When dako first opened up discussions for a cup format it was a great thing. It allowed for people to express what they wanted this cup to be. Dako then decided to run the cup as it had been before. (Which I think most people were OK with.) Yes I know some people really wanted an all random cup. Putting it up for discussion and then taking it away I know did not sit well with a few people.
Fair point. That's a moderation issue, not a CCUP4 issue. The only way to learn forum management is to make mistakes and learn from them.
Bruceswar wrote:3. We CD's surely have some fault in this whole situation. We clearly made some mistakes and have learned from them. I am not going to place blame on anybody but I think everybody can say the situation boiled over.
No, I know you can't place blame on anybody publicly, but it's clear that you want to blame somebody other than yourself.
Bruceswar wrote:4. I would like to apologize to Dako for not getting a chance to fire off a PM or letting him know that we CD's were taking this event official. I will not get into the why of it as I am not going to slam anybody, but there are valid reasons for it. This part I take full blame for and you can all chastise me for it.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but why does it matter if the event is "official" or not?
Bruceswar wrote:5. This cup is going to be lots of fun for everybody involved. I know some of you are mad about how this shook down. When it became clear this had totally boiled over we called in rdsrds2021 for help. He asked us why we even put the format up for a vote. We expressed that full random was popular with some clans. In his words "Well, that's silly", and he wanted us to revert back to what the cup had been for years. We obviously picked a middle ground. With that said I hope you all do not miss out on this cup.
The problem is that the middle ground is unfair for everyone involved.
I'll use an 8-clan cup as an example. Here is what it looks like if everyone is seeded:
Everyone knows exactly what they're getting when they get into it. The top seeds know they'll play bottom seeds and vice versa, and you play the odds that the better clans will make it further.
Everyone knows exactly what they're getting when they get into it. You have no idea who you're playing in the first round, which means nobody has an advantage or disadvantage. It's fair to everybody, but the odds are that you'll have at least 1 clan make the second round that would not have made it seeded, and 1 miss that would have if they were seeded.
Now it's unfair for everybody. The top seed loses it's advantage because there is now only a 25% chance they play the bottom seed. The 4th seed gains a very large advantage as there is now a 75% chance they place a lower ranked clan than they should. The bottom seed gains a huge advantage as there is now only a 25% chance they play the top seed. The other three randomized clans will all either pick up a slight advantage or disadvantage. This is especially bad for the 5th seed, if they are close in ranking to the 4th. Imagine being one point in the F400 rankings behind your rival, who you should play in a seeded tournament, only to draw against the top seed while your rival draws the bottom seed. You've drawn an arbitrary line where this slight difference confers a large advantage to one team and a large disadvantage to another. The same point difference between 1 and 2, 2 and 3, or 3 and 4 causes no such change.
Now, if you expand my 8-clan example to 32-clans, the impacts become that much more amplified. To put this in a real-world perspective, let's use the 32 clans currently topping the F400 rankings. The 16/17 split is where this becomes most noticeable. Right now, the difference between 16 (MM) and 17 (TNC) is 12 points. I am not all that familiar with the F400 rankings, but it seems to me that is a rather narrow gap. In full seeded, these close ranked clans would play each other while the top seed (KORT) would play the bottom seed (VDLL) at a difference of 533 points. In a randomized bracket, nobody would know who they play so no advantage is conferred. But in a mixed, MM gains a huge advantage over TNC, and VDLL gains a huge advantage over KORT.
The chances of MM getting a better matchup than seeded is 93.75%, while the chances of them drawing a worse matchup than seeded is 0%. MM gains a huge advantage over all opponents. The same numbers ring up for VDLL, who cannot draw worse than the seeded matchup of KORT. Conversely, KORT and TNC cannot draw better, only worse. Imagine being TNC, who are only 12 points out of being seeded but end up playing the top seeded KORT in the first round. One could hardly call that fair. Nor is it fair for KORT, who should gain the advantage of playing the bottom ranked seed, but instead have to play the 17th, who are barely out of seeding.
A tournament like this MUST be either completely seeded or completely random. The mixed system confers too much advantage to being in certain spots in the standings, which is further compounded by which clans decide to join the tournament.
Bruceswar wrote:6. I would hope going forward that people will be able to put the differences aside. I saw lots of people shouting at each other, foeing people, and other things. We clans are above that. Sure a good healthy debate is good at times, but we as clans should not let another debate get so heated. No clan should be labeled as "an elitist asshole" or a "low ranked noob clan" Every clan has something to offer to the clan world and every clan is what makes this site so great. This is by far the best website for CC gaming. Bar none. Nobody is even close to having a clan community like ours. I would hope we can keep it that way. We CD's share in some of the blame as we did not step in the middle of the debate as much as we should at times.
As an admitted member of a low ranked noob clan, I will gladly call other clans elitist assholes, because that is exactly what the format calls for. The top clans (I am overgeneralizing here, I realize) do not want to face off in the early rounds. I understand that, but to build a format that ensures moving your top clans into later rounds at the expense of lower clans is the definition of elitist asshole. I firmly believe that the format should not matter as all clans should be playing for the overall win regardless of the format, and the winning clan will have to defeat 3 other deserving clans to win. But because each round counts as a war, affects the F400 standings, and has medals awarded, each round is important outside the cup itself. For that reason, you cannot adjust the format to confer advantage to the top clans unless you're going to be open about it and seed the whole thing.
If you are arguing that you don't want a random cup because you don't want the top clans to face off in the early rounds, you are an elitist asshole.
Bruceswar wrote:7. I know some of you might not like the CD's right now, but I can say this. We CD's are volunteer workers and we spend many hours in the clan area so we can all have some fun. I know you might not agree with everything we do at times, but we are not here to try and make anybody's life on CC harder. We are here to try and do the best we can for clans. We are human and make mistakes at times. I hope going forward everybody can show some mutual respect towards each other.
Thanks for admitting this, albeit as Chewie noted a bit late.
Bruceswar wrote:1. For all those clans who are "boycotting" the event. I have to ask if you asked your clan if they would like to play or if this is just your knee jerk reaction to the situation. This is not meant as a slam on anybody, but sometimes we all need to step back a bit and take a deep breath and look again with a clearer head.
Denominator wrote: I really hope you're not thinking before you say this. Because it either means you think that Clan leaders don't bother asking their clan what they want, or Clan leaders actually don't bother asking what their clan wants. DBC obviously had a lengthy discussion about it before we decided not to participate, or our name would mean nothing.
These two statements helps highlight what went completely wrong with the debate for the CCUP4 format.
The CD and Friends was set up to improve the clan world and how it is run, a volunteer(s) from each clan was nominated as the voice of their clan to discuss issues, report back to their clans and then ultimately vote on issues.
But when the vote had been cast on this and the voters views totally disregarded this statement has now followed:
Bruceswar wrote:1. For all those clans who are "boycotting" the event. I have to ask if you asked your clan if they would like to play or if this is just your knee jerk reaction to the situation. This is not meant as a slam on anybody, but sometimes we all need to step back a bit and take a deep breath and look again with a clearer head.
So now that I have " stepped back and taken a deep breath" The question is where does this leave us in the future, the CCUP4 is now a poisoned chalice as the debate continues to run and run.
DBC has polls/votes on significant issues that affects the clan, on occasion one or more of the 3 leaders have not agreed in the outcome of our vote but as a leader they have then led by example and accepted what the majority wanted. In short they didnt abuse their power and force an issue that wasnt wanted. But the leaders of the CD have done exactly that:
Bruceswar also wrote:
5. This cup is going to be lots of fun for everybody involved. I know some of you are mad about how this shook down. When it became clear this had totally boiled over we called in rdsrds2021 for help. He asked us why we even put the format up for a vote. We expressed that full random was popular with some clans. In his words "Well, that's silly", and he wanted us to revert back to what the cup had been for years. We obviously picked a middle ground. With that said I hope you all do not miss out on this cup.
Reinforces the abuse of power.
I voted for DBC but ours and others were ignored so CDS put yourself in our shoes and stop trying to deflect the blame from yourselves with belittling theories of knee jerks etc... Man up and take full blame you would earn back a portion of your lost respect.
and by the look of the sign up's so far there are probably others. I can't speak for the others but I feel totally disenfranchised by the whole sorry episode. The compromise that was reached and the patronising positive spin it was given, left a very bad taste in my mouth.
What would change my mind: A reduction in the number of seeds to 8. 16 is way too many for a tourney of this size.
Keefie
Are those clans not playing because of the seeded nature of it? Then I presume they would have also sat out on a traditional CC4, if it were run according to the rules of its predecessors.
Anyway, we're here, where we are.
Let's play.
He misstated it. Those clans (except FISO) would have all likely played in a seeded cup if that option won the vote. But when it came to a vote, the CDs did not respect the process and unfairly used their power to rig an entirely different system that was more to their liking. Afterwards, the issue of them taking the CC4 from Dako in the first place, came to light. We now see the CDs as manipulators and not advocates.
ViperOverLord wrote:He misstated it. Those clans (except FISO) would have all likely played in a seeded cup if that option won the vote. But when it came to a vote, the CDs did not respect the process and unfairly used their power to rig an entirely different system that was more to their liking. Afterwards, the issue of them taking the CC4 from Dako in the first place, came to light. We now see the CDs as manipulators and not advocates.
Exactly!
But as a public service I'd also like to address some broken English going around here. This is the difference between Elite and Elitist - To be Elite would mean that their skill level was so high that they could play anyone, anywhere and win. Like the US Navy SEALS, if it please you. But instead what they do is rig the system to favor their team, so they're actually Elitist. They have a self-interested and self-serving mindset, because they perceive themselves as superior to everyone else. They're ConquerClub's version of the 1%. They can call themselves what they like, but to everyone else we need to understand that this sense of entitlement that they have is Elitism.
denominator wrote:As an admitted member of a low ranked noob clan, I will gladly call other clans elitist assholes, because that is exactly what the format calls for. The top clans (I am overgeneralizing here, I realize) do not want to face off in the early rounds. I understand that, but to build a format that ensures moving your top clans into later rounds at the expense of lower clans is the definition of elitist asshole. I firmly believe that the format should not matter as all clans should be playing for the overall win regardless of the format, and the winning clan will have to defeat 3 other deserving clans to win. But because each round counts as a war, affects the F400 standings, and has medals awarded, each round is important outside the cup itself. For that reason, you cannot adjust the format to confer advantage to the top clans unless you're going to be open about it and seed the whole thing.
If you are arguing that you don't want a random cup because you don't want the top clans to face off in the early rounds, you are an elitist asshole.
shoop76 wrote:Maybe in future years this should just be open to the top 32 clans with the top 8 seeded.
Clans have all year, through different events and head to head wars to improve their rankings.
i like this suggestion
+1 seeding of top 4...max top 8 sounds good to me.
Chariot of Fire wrote:I would place the 4 semi-finalists of the previous cup in different quadrants of the draw so they couldn't meet again until later in the tourney.
This sounds very good too. +1 again, sounds perfect.
Chariot of Fire wrote:p.s. I play golf, but you don't see me playing in The Masters right now. That's because they'e invited the Top 93 in the world. Championship tournaments work this way.
You aren't in the top 93 CoF? Shame on you, now you disappoint me!
Chariot of Fire wrote:p.s. I play golf, but you don't see me playing in The Masters right now. That's because they'e invited the Top 93 in the world. Championship tournaments work this way.
You aren't in the top 93 CoF? Shame on you, now you disappoint me!
Keefie wrote:HH have been holding a vote for the past few days, although it's not finished yet the result cannot change. HH will be participating in the CC4.
