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[SCSY] No points lost for players killed before they play
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:43 amby OliverFA
NO LOSS/WIN OF POINTS FOR PLAYERS KILLED BEFORE THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY
Concise description:
Yes, I know that I am complaining because it just happened to me. However, experiencing it myself has allowed me to see how unfair that is.
In some games, the last player to move never gets his first turn because the other players kill him first. However, he loses points. It is extremely unfair, as that lose of points cannot be explained as he being worse player than the others. He just could not play, and his strategy has no flaws. Or if there are flaws, we just couldn't see them.
For this reason I suggest that for players killed before their first turn, no points are gained or lost.
Specifics:
If a player is killed before he has the chance to take his first turn, no points are gained or lost as a result of that action.
This means that if a player is killed in Freestyle, he will loses the points anywhere because he had the opportunity to play. But if he is killed before his turn arrives in Sequential, hi will not lose points.
This will improve the following aspects of the site:
The game will be more fair, and the score system will be a bit more representative of the player true skill.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:51 amby ManBungalow
I see the problem and feel your pain
However: playing last in a larger game is part of luck (or unluck?), and someone's gotta go last anyway. If we have a rule such as you are suggesting it may cut down next to all attacks on the first turn. I suggest that you use your starting position to your advantage
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:21 amby Sven Hassel
it will kill 8 player doodle earth assassin games
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:29 amby OliverFA
ManBungalow wrote:I see the problem and feel your pain
However: playing last in a larger game is part of luck (or unluck?), and someone's gotta go last anyway. If we have a rule such as you are suggesting it may cut down next to all attacks on the first turn. I suggest that you use your starting position to your advantage
Yes I see what you are saying. Something like "some times you will be the last and lose the points without being able to do anything, and some other times you will be the lucky one who can do the same to someone else". Anyway, I think it is unfair even if it could benefit me.
I think this is a strategy game, and the score should reflect your skill, not your luck. Of course, it is good to have some luck factor, because it makes it more entertaining. But when luck is not a factor but everything, then the entertainment goes away.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:32 amby OliverFA
Sven Hassel wrote:it will kill 8 player doodle earth assassin games
In fact, now that you mention it... Aren't 8 players too much for Doodle Earth? Even with 6 players, each one gets only 3 territories. With 8 players that cuts it down to only 2 territories per player, and a lot of neutrals. If you are the 8th player. Which are your chances to get killed before is your first turn? I think they are pretty high, and mostly unfair.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:22 amby lancehoch
I could see this being implemented to sequential games, but in freestyle games doesn't everyone get a chance to take their turn? You might want to change the wording to "did not have the opportunity to start their turn".
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:30 amby OliverFA
lancehoch wrote:I could see this being implemented to sequential games, but in freestyle games doesn't everyone get a chance to take their turn? You might want to change the wording to "did not have the opportunity to start their turn".
You are right. This only makes sense for sequential games, and not for freestyle games.
I will change the wording as suggested. Thanks!
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:48 amby bedub1
OliverFA wrote:lancehoch wrote:I could see this being implemented to sequential games, but in freestyle games doesn't everyone get a chance to take their turn? You might want to change the wording to "did not have the opportunity to start their turn".
You are right. This only makes sense for sequential games, and not for freestyle games.
I will change the wording as suggested. Thanks!
Fantastic idea.
loss before first turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:42 amby Molwen
So, I joined a game on 'Luxembourg', and was eliminated before my first turn.
In my opinion this is hardly fair, although perhaps it just comes down to chance.
At any rate, in the original game this was never a problem, so should there be some exception
whereby you dont lost points if you are eliminated before your first turn?
Just a suggestion.
Re: loss before first turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:27 amby Thezzaruz
Not a bad idea tbf but do a search please, it has been suggested and discusses before...
Re: loss before first turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:47 amby Molwen
my bad, i did a search but obviously didnt look far back enough.
it didnt appear in the sticky post so i went ahead and posted
Re: loss before first turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:45 amby Stroop
or maybe you shouldn't play a small map with 8 players...
Re: loss before first turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:55 amby Hotdoggie
Stroop wrote:or maybe you shouldn't play a small map with 8 players...
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:21 amby lancehoch
Merged a new thread in.
Re: loss before first turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:06 pmby OliverFA
Stroop wrote:or maybe you shouldn't play a small map with 8 players...
That is also a valid point. Anything less than 24 territories is too few for an 8 players match. Maps like Doodle's Earth play better with 6 players.
Anyway, it can happen not only in a 18 territories map, but even in a Classic map, that a player can get killed before he has any chance to move. And I still do think that is one of the most unfair things that can happen to you, and should not result in point exchange.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:00 pmby imcooler
this wouldn't solve anything because then people could just knock you down to one territory, wait a turn, then kill you. Also it would ruin several game types- as mentioned before- doodle earth 8 man assassin games and quadruples games.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:36 pmby FabledIntegral
Don't join the type of game where you can be eliminated in turn 1 if you don't like that strategy. This would kill quad games and such - where a significant part of the strategy is eliminating your opponent before they can deploy, just as your allies should be deploying for you if you're down the list.
Concerning your doodle assassins, once again don't join these if you're that worried about losing points - the game is a gamble in itself, it's not fair to not pay your share if you entered the game.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:55 amby OliverFA
FabledIntegral wrote:Don't join the type of game where you can be eliminated in turn 1 if you don't like that strategy. This would kill quad games and such - where a significant part of the strategy is eliminating your opponent before they can deploy, just as your allies should be deploying for you if you're down the list.
Concerning your doodle assassins, once again don't join these if you're that worried about losing points - the game is a gamble in itself, it's not fair to not pay your share if you entered the game.
It is not about being worried about losing points. It is about losing them in an way that is unfair. I don't care if I lose the points because my opponents are better than me. What I dislike is when I lose points because my oponents were luckier than me.
If I was so worried about my score I would be playing new recruits in 1v1.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:04 amby FabledIntegral
OliverFA wrote:FabledIntegral wrote:Don't join the type of game where you can be eliminated in turn 1 if you don't like that strategy. This would kill quad games and such - where a significant part of the strategy is eliminating your opponent before they can deploy, just as your allies should be deploying for you if you're down the list.
Concerning your doodle assassins, once again don't join these if you're that worried about losing points - the game is a gamble in itself, it's not fair to not pay your share if you entered the game.
It is not about being worried about losing points. It is about losing them in an way that is unfair. I don't care if I lose the points because my opponents are better than me. What I dislike is when I lose points because my oponents were luckier than me.
If I was so worried about my score I would be playing new recruits in 1v1.
In doodle assassin - it's not unfair, it's the nature of joining a game with 8 players where you only get 2 territories. It's the
nature of the game that someone is eliminated asap - that's why you take so much risk in the game.
In quads and such - it's the inherent strategy of the game. Try to eliminate someone so that they can't deploy and thus one team gets their turns back to back. Teamwork can prevent it if you deploy on a teammate. It's not unfair there either.
Where exactly does the problem lie with you? What gamestyle? Because if you have a problem with either of those, you simply shouldn't be playing.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:45 amby OliverFA
Ok, we can set a limit in territories then. How many starting territories until it is unfair to lose at the begining of the game? Is it 2 territories? Maybe 3? 4? I am not talking about extreme cases here, such as Doodle 8 players. I am talking about any case in which that happens, be it Doodle or World 2.1.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:14 amby FabledIntegral
Which I disagree with - so now let's say round 1 a player is able to kill his assassin in an 8-player doodle assassin sequential. Does he win 0 points? Hardly... of course everyone deserves to lose points... they joined an 8-player doodle assassin. You just said you want all cases - so then extreme cases are included.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:38 amby OliverFA
Shouldn't rules ensure that the contest is fair? If the rules allow a player to lose before he can even make a turn, then the rules are wrong.
In that particular case, probably 8 player games shouldn't be allowed in very small maps. Or at least, a disclaimer should inform the players about the risk they are taking. Basically, that they are playing roulette more than an strategy game.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:25 amby Stroop
OliverFA wrote:Shouldn't rules ensure that the contest is fair? If the rules allow a player to lose before he can even make a turn, then the rules are wrong.
Don't we all have an equal chance of getting a lucky drop and getting that kill in before anyone else plays? It is perfectly fair. If you don't want to take that chance, just play different games.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:45 amby OliverFA
Stroop wrote:OliverFA wrote:Shouldn't rules ensure that the contest is fair? If the rules allow a player to lose before he can even make a turn, then the rules are wrong.
Don't we all have an equal chance of getting a lucky drop and getting that kill in before anyone else plays? It is perfectly fair. If you don't want to take that chance, just play different games.
Ok, I will reformulate it. The contest should be fair and depend mainly on players skill, not on players luck.
Yes, I know that now you are going to say something like "If you don't want luck then play chess". A bit of luck factor is not only ok, but also fun and entertaining. But when the luck factor overweights the skill factor, the entertainment gets lost.
Re: No loss of points for players killed before their 1st turn
Posted:
Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:18 amby Stroop
If you don't want luck then play Stratego.
Seriously though, I enjoy the 8-player Freestyle Assassin games on Doodle Earth, and even though I sometimes lose them even before I knew they had started, I don't mind. I know that it might happen the moment I create or join such a game. I wouldn't mind a warning for players about the amount of luck involved (as long as it's not an extra screen to browse through), but I'd hate not getting any points because I was able to eliminate my target before they could even deploy.