Conquer Club

"This will decrease point farming in a very small way, sure. But point farming does not usually happen because one great player is targeting one poor player - it happens when one great player is targeting a whole mass of poor players. The unique opponent portion is interesting, but it will not have a huge effect on point farming."
well with new possible formula , its better to play with high ranked players instead with low ranked players. Actualy for everybody its better to play with high ranked players.

And what if you beat the Conqueror? Does he count as Field Marshal (16 points), or more?"
yes i forget conqueror-well he its in same rank with fieldmarshal.

Do you lose points for losing? If so, how many?

"Do you lose points for losing? If so, how many?"
hmm,i think that point table give you answer. Ofcourse you losing points.
Like i say if you are fieldmarshal and you play against cook(i assume that fieldmarshal are experience player, who are above cook and know great strategy) you will get 2 mvp point, and cook will lost 2 mvp point. But if you in any way lost against cook,then you will lost 16 mvp point and cook will get 16 mvp point. In that way if you realy want to be mvp, you need to play with high ranked players,instead to play with low ranked players, because MVP can not be someone who are great in defeating big number of cooks and other low ranked players. I belive that in these way (quality ranking points) will prevent that someone can abuse these system, and that these achivement get some value.

qwert wrote:"Do you lose points for losing? If so, how many?"
hmm,i think that point table give you answer. Ofcourse you losing points.
Like i say if you are fieldmarshal and you win against cook, you will get 2 mvp point, and cook will lost 2 mvp point. But if you in any way lost against cook,then you will lost 16 mvp point and cook will get 16 mvp point.

Ah, now I see. I was right all along.

It does benefit you to be a low rank. The lower rank you are at the start of the month, the better chance you have to be MVP.

This will cause some people to dump points in order to get a better chance of being MVP.

But the real problem is that it is unfair for high rankers; they will have very little chance of being MVP.

Thank you for your time, Qwert... I'll probably be voting "No," unless we can come up with something different.

Of course, the flip side is, if we make everyone equal, it will lead to point farming... we cannot make it so that you win 20 points no matter who you play.

It may be that there is no right answer, Qwert.

But the right answer cannot be the one you have put forth, because you will end up with a winner who probably started at Sergeant or lower at the start of each month.

Which, of course, is extremely flawed... high ranks should at least have a chance of being MVP

Ah, now I see. I was right all along.

It does benefit you to be a low rank. The lower rank you are at the start of the month, the better chance you have to be MVP.

This will cause some people to dump points in order to get a better chance of being MVP.

But the real problem is that it is unfair for high rankers; they will have very little chance of being MVP.

Thank you for your time, Qwert... I'll probably be voting "No," unless we can come up with something different.

Of course, the flip side is, if we make everyone equal, it will lead to point farming... we cannot make it so that you win 20 points no matter who you play.

It may be that there is no right answer, Qwert.

But the right answer cannot be the one you have put forth, because you will end up with a winner who probably started at Sergeant or lower at the start of each month.

Which, of course, is extremely flawed... high ranks should at least have a chance of being MVP

Huh,i dont know what words to use to understand each other.
First-in page 1 you have several diferent option for calculate mvp points-one of these its to calculate same like main scoreboard,only get points for one month.
Second have hes own calculation, like 3rd sugestion,and also 4th sugestion (last) have totaly diferent calculation for mvp points,and its look that you put all sugestion in on box,because now we get confused.
Just go in page 1 and look each sugestion separate,and not together, because they are not same.

im arange first post to be more understand

qwert wrote:Huh,i dont know what words to use to understand each other.
First-in page 1 you have several diferent option for calculate mvp points-one of these its to calculate same like main scoreboard,only get points for one month.
Second have hes own calculation, like 3rd sugestion,and also 4th sugestion (last) have totaly diferent calculation for mvp points,and its look that you put all sugestion in on box,because now we get confused.
Just go in page 1 and look each sugestion separate,and not together, because they are not same.

Okay, I looked at page 1.

Option 1, I'm assuming, is to use the normal CC scoreboard

Options 2+3 are almost exactly the same; in Option 2, you get 1 point per defeat, and in Option 3, you get 5. It makes no difference; they're the same. The big problem with Options 2+3 is that they encourage point farming, which you know.

Option 4 is what we have been discussing, because you know what is wrong with Options 2+3.

You do not seem to understand what is wrong with Option 4, even though I have been saying it over and over and over.

Option 4 is very much like the current scoreboard.

It makes it hard to farm because you get less points from low ranks than you do from high ranks. The same is true of our current scoreboard.

However, just like on our current scoreboard, it is harder for high ranks to gain points. That is fine for a scoreboard, but when you're talking about the winner getting a medal, it is not okay.

Here, try thinking about it from a high rank's perspective:

Here I am, up around 4500. I am incredibly skilled, and maintain my score despite winning 5-10 points per win and losing 30-40 for a loss. I usually stay around 4500, but sometimes dip to as low as 4000 and go up as high as 4700.

In a given month, I can gain only about 700 points at best; I can't seem to get higher than 4700.

Now, I find out that I could get a medal by gaining the most points possible in a given month. I want the medal, but also want to keep my score. I decide never to drop my score in order to get it, and never have a chance to even come close... despite being a far better player than many of the MVP winners.

That is what will happen to most high ranks.

But, for argument's sake, let's say I do decide to go for it.

I play hundreds of speed assassin doodles and drop my score all the way down to 1200.

Now, I am ready to go for it. I gain 3,000 (regular scoreboard) points in the next month and am the MVP.

But now, I'm at 4,200 and have no chance of being MVP again. I can't gain 3,000 points in the next month, obviously.

So, in the next month, I drop my score down to Sergeant again in order to prepare for my MVP run.

And in the next month, with a score of 1200...

Do you really not see what is wrong with Option 4, Qwert?

It the same problem that we'll come upon if we use the regular scoreboard.



It is unfair to high ranks because it is harder for them to gain points.

Should not the MVP, if we have one, be the player who is the best at gaining points?

Sure, a few high ranks will point dump in order to go for the medal.

But why should we force them to do that? And what about the other high ranks, who will never even come close to getting this medal?

If we had to implement this, I would rather see Options 2 or 3 be chosen rather than 1 or 4.

I would rather have point farming be encouraged than have an unequal playing field.

Although, in the end, it's probably best if none of the 4 were chosen.

All of them have cons that outweigh the pros.

Let me know if you still think that we have has a miscommunication, Qwert.


Or if you still think that Option 4 would not make it harder for high ranks to get this medal.

Okay guys, enough of the double/triple/quad posting.

If you want to add more to what you said, edit your first post

qwert wrote:Look-You are high ranked player,right, and option 4 give you chance to be mvp, just need to defeat high ranked players.

Yes, but a lower rank has a better chance of being MVP when they play high ranked players. The lower rank will lose less points when they lose.

qwert wrote:option for have nothing with point dumping, because if you drop to be sergeant and you play with colonel, then you will get same points like colonel vs colonel.

If a Colonel point dumps and becomes a sergeant, and then loses to a Colonel, he only loses 8 points. If he were still a Colonel, he would lose 12 points.

qwert wrote:If you want to be mvp,you need to play with high ranked, not with low ranked player.

Yes, I understand.

I understand that.

But if you are a General playing a cook, you stand to win 2 points and risk 16. If you're a cook playing a cook, you stand to win 2 points and risk 2. This is not fair to the General; everyone should be on a level playing field.

qwert wrote:I give you examle-major vs major vs colonel-and colonel win get 24 mvp points.
Assume that colonel belive if he drop points in regular board,and belive that he will get more mvp point if he become sergeant-totaly wrong
major vs major vs sergeant-sergeant win get 24 point.

AND WHAT IF HE LOSES?

If A COLONEL LOSES, HE LOSES 12 POINTS.

IF A SERGEANT LOSES, HE LOSES ONLY 8.

THEREFORE, IT IS BENEFICIAL TO BE A LOWER RANK WHEN THE MONTH STARTS. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?

qwert wrote:Now these prevent point dumping,because you dont need to be sergeant to get these number of points.

Ah, but since you are risking less points as a low rank, it is beneficial for a high rank to point dump every other month to become a low rank.

qwert wrote:That why i call quality ranking- If you are good and play with best,you will have big chance to be mvp,but if you try in easy way(playing with low ranked) then your chances to be mvp its low,even if you beat almsot all low ranked players,you will get less points. These second prevent farming.

Right, formula 4 prevents farming.

I FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT.

I'VE SAID IT BEFORE. We must stop discussing that.

What we need to discuss is the fact that you don't seem to understand that because a low rank LOSES LESS POINTS, he has an advantage over the high rank.

qwert wrote:With Formula 4-playing big number with high ranked player give you bect chance to be mvp.

Yes, playing against high ranks is good because you gain more points.

I understand that.

But YOU must understand that BEING a high rank SUCKS

Because you LOSE MORE POINTS IF YOU LOSE than you would as a low rank.

Therefore, HIGH RANKS MUST POINT DUMP

and BECOME LOW RANKS

In order to have ANY CHANCE at MVP





Please tell me that you finally understand... because this is killing me


I have a feeling you'll understand after reading this...


Then we can finally discuss whether or not this should be implemented DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT IS MUCH HARDER, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, FOR HIGH RANKS TO BE MVP.

It is the issue that Mr Changsha brought up on page 3 or 4, and that I reposted on Page 9 or so.

We cannot discuss that until you understand that high ranks have a serious and crippling disadvantage.

i must say,that i first time heard that high ranked players are in big disatvantage.

"Then we can finally discuss whether or not this should be implemented DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT IS MUCH HARDER, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, FOR HIGH RANKS TO BE MVP."
These is suggestion,its not any kind of order to be implemented.
I realy want to eliminate point dumping,and also i want to prevent point farming, because if i put to all be equal,then high ranked player,will play as much he can with low ranked,because win its secured,and i want to prevent that low ranked players be pigeons in plate.
Also if you start like sergeant, these not meant that you will end month like sergeant, because in half month you can become colonel,and situation its change, then you will not lost 8,you will lost more points.
Now we can disscuse over and over again,but if you have some ideas,please present, so that we can explore more.

qwert wrote:i must say,that i first time heard that high ranked players are in big disatvantage.

No it isn't. Have you seen page 1 of this thread?

Granted, Formula 4 is different from the regular scoreboard in that high ranking players do not gain fewer points for a win than low ranking players. In that way, it does make it a bit fairer for high ranks.

However, there is the other half of the equation - high ranks lose more points than low ranks, which still puts them at a disadvantage.

You were right in thinking that this disadvantage is smaller than it would be in Formula 1.

qwert wrote:These is suggestion,its not any kind of order to be implemented.
I realy want to eliminate point dumping,and also i want to prevent point farming, because if i put to all be equal,then high ranked player,will play as much he can with low ranked,because win its secured,and i want to prevent that low ranked players be pigeons in plate.

I'm just not sure you can have both.

As it stands, Formulas 1+4 result in point dumping (and high rank disadvantage), and Formulas 2+3 result in point farming.

qwert wrote:Also if you start like sergeant, these not meant that you will end month like sergeant, because in half month you can become colonel,and situation its change, then you will not lost 8,you will lost more points.

Right, that's exactly what will happen.

But the point is that going from Sergeant to Colonel, a gain of 1,200 points, is far, far easier than going from General to Field Marshal, a gain of 1,000 points.

qwert wrote:Now we can disscuse over and over again,but if you have some ideas,please present, so that we can explore more.

I don't have any ideas. As I've said before, I don't believe there is a way to make this work.

I'm sure someone else will come in and offer up a new idea.

If there was a way to search games by date I would do this in a script.
Otherwise site has to do it, it is a great idea.

For clarification there is no issue about high ranks being at a disadvantage because everybody has a separate monthly
score starting at zero and points gained/loss are calculated using the monthly rank only.

chipv wrote:For clarification there is no issue about high ranks being at a disadvantage because everybody has a separate monthly
score starting at zero and points gained/loss are calculated using the monthly rank only.

Ohhh okay, I get it now!

You and Qwert are right; this idea is great.

I would love to see this implemented.

ok,i try to made much better description,that people understand what im present here, i think that now its everything ok, small things need to be clear,and we can move forward.
-------------------------------------------------
b]Specifics:[/b]
This will not replace the existing scoreboard, but be a new feature.
At the beginning of the month, each persons monthly score is set to 800, and everybody will have cadet rank.
Points are gained and lost in the same way as the existing scoreboard. The player with the most points gained during the month (highest monthly score) gets the MVP of the Month medal.
At the end of the month, all monthly scores are set back to 0 and the process is restarted.



Possible abuse: if in any way MVP of the month Abuse these system, Mods can not alove hem MPV Medal,and next player in scoreboard can be pronounce Mvp of the month.
abuse cases-(still need to determine these)

lets go voters

So after reading through i dont know how many pages of higher ranked people whining about how this is going to be so hard for them to become the montly mvp what i get is this..

1) a monthly scoreboard reset every month. The scores for this scoreboard (correct me if i'm wrong) would be completely independent of the normal scoreboard
2) there may possibly be a medal (which has already been designed) for the winner each month
3) this gives newer players (like me) a chance at getting a little recognition for skill

i support this idea. i also believe it would bring newer players into the community more. It is kind of intimidating looking at everyone posting/playing having been here for a long time and have much higher ranks. Which would probably lead to newer players being more likely to stay.

cons- higher ranked players would have a harder time getting this medal? They are high ranked for a reason. I understand that they have worked hard to get those scores and ranks, but at the same time some of us havent even had a chance to proove ourselves and are being discouraged from doing so simply because its a daunting task to even attempt.



edit:
i do see one problem--Premium players have a much better chance of getting this medal because they have more of an opportunity to play games. I did see a suggestion somewhere in there to have a premi and freemi board which I support, but thats another matter to be handled if this suggestion goes through

by skipopidid » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:37 am

So after reading through i dont know how many pages of higher ranked people whining about how this is going to be so hard for them to become the montly mvp what i get is this..

1) a monthly scoreboard reset every month. The scores for this scoreboard (correct me if i'm wrong) would be completely independent of the normal scoreboard
2) there may possibly be a medal (which has already been designed) for the winner each month
3) this gives newer players (like me) a chance at getting a little recognition for skill

i support this idea. i also believe it would bring newer players into the community more. It is kind of intimidating looking at everyone posting/playing having been here for a long time and have much higher ranks. Which would probably lead to newer players being more likely to stay.

cons- higher ranked players would have a harder time getting this medal? They are high ranked for a reason. I understand that they have worked hard to get those scores and ranks, but at the same time some of us havent even had a chance to proove ourselves and are being discouraged from doing so simply because its a daunting task to even attempt.



edit:
i do see one problem--Premium players have a much better chance of getting this medal because they have more of an opportunity to play games. I did see a suggestion somewhere in there to have a premi and freemi board which I support, but thats another matter to be handled if this suggestion goes through

thanks for support,lets try to answer.
1.yes,its totaly independent, and only formula its same like for main scoreboard. All players start with equal rank,and with equal points.
2.Well these is mine creation,officialy nothing still not recognise,but i hope that mods ,will come to give hes oppinion.
3.Yes,if you manage to play good, you have nice chance for MVP, like all other players
4.Well premium and fremium, these is something what i dont have influence, its same like in main scoreboard,where you have very large number of Premiums with high ranks,then have more space to play more games,and these can be opstacle for you to one day be mvp,because you have limited games, and these is only advantage what premiums have over fremiums.
I think that its not possible to have two mvp scoreboard.

i think that these have enough supporty to be at least stickied.

I feel this has enough support for a Sticky.

TFO? what these mean?

Quick question, is the first post up to date with everything qwert?

by TheForgivenOne » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:02 am

Quick question, is the first post up to date with everything qwert?

up to date? what you mean?