Conquer Club

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:08 am**

Concise description:

New Recruits worth 0 points, and gain 0 points.

Specifics:

If a New Recruit loses a game, they lose 0 points, and their opponent gains 0 points. If a New Recruit knocks someone out in Terminator, or gets knocked out, they similarly get / lose 0 points.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

Points farming of New Recruits will no longer occur
Overall points inflation from New Recruits joining only to leave immediately will no longer occur
New Recruits get a chance to learn the basics of how to play and how to use the game page before they risk losing points
New Recruits will be more likely to be returning players, and so paying customers
Creating multi's as sacrifical points lambs will no longer occur
Ex players who have been permabanned will no longer be able to create a new account to attack established players points

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:18 am**

Very nice suggestion.

Something really has to be done to prevent all of the noob farming. This suggestion will solve that in a great way.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:04 am**

A great suggestion, and one that has come up before.

A question from me about the incentive of it - a lot of newbies will play higher ranks specifically because of the point incentive. How do you:
a) inform them that they shouldn't go find the highest ranker because it's not going to get them points
b) keep them incentivized (is that a word) if they don't win points for their first 5 games if points are such a big motivator?
c) encourage other users to play newbies if they aren't worth anything and tend to deadbeat?

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:07 am**

compromise.

new recruits only gain and lose 50% points.

(excellent idea btw)

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:32 am**

Twill wrote:A great suggestion, and one that has come up before.

A question from me about the incentive of it - a lot of newbies will play higher ranks specifically because of the point incentive. How do you:
a) inform them that they shouldn't go find the highest ranker because it's not going to get them points

Part of the splash screen when you sign up. Something along the lines of "Your first 5 games are for tutorial purposes - no points are scored during these games, so you can play anyone from Cook to Conquerer, gaining experience you'll need when you become a ranked player"

b) keep them incentivized (is that a word) if they don't win points for their first 5 games if points are such a big motivator?

That is a valid concern. I guess the key is to put a positive spin on it by pitching it as tutorial experience. I know when I first joined, I had no idea what was going on until my 10th or so game, and I've been playing isk-Ray for years. It's pretty discouraging losing your first 5 games (which most players do). I guess thinking of it like Newbie School (a la MMORPGS) would be the way I would envisage it working.

c) encourage other users to play newbies if they aren't worth anything and tend to deadbeat?

A answer your question with another querstion Twill

How do you discourage other users from playing newbies when they are worth points, and tend to deadbeat?

I don't see many ?s in games I play, I think they tend to get scared away by the rank. The amount of games playing by New Recuits is actually very little, and it may simply have to be accepted as a sacrifice by the community in order to quell the points farming epidemic. The most ?s I ever see are in 8player games on specialised maps, such as Waterloo and Circus Maximus. Ranked players generally don't join these games, as there is an unwritten rule that everyone is allowed to farm newbies unchallenged. This is not acceptable to all - some people find it acceptable, but not all of us, and I'm tired of seeing players on 3500+ points, I join a team game with them, and they can't play for sh*t.

Look really, in response to this last question, sure there are going to be players that avoid playing New Recruits, but then there is also scope for a New Recruits School, like the Society of the Cooks. I would certainly take part in games I knew were worth no points to assist others in learning the game, and I'm not the only one. You could even have a New Recruits forum that new members are automatically signed up for, and you can choose to opt out whenever you want. All newbie questions could be asked and answered there, away from the (sometimes extremely vitriolic and hostile) General Discussion.

This suggestion is not about opening a can of worms, but shutting one. I welcome discussion on it, as I am looking from the perspective of someone who is tired of the routine farming that goes on, so in a way I am biased and have blinkers on. Sometimes though, the solution may not be perfect, but the problems it creates may be less than the problems it solves.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:53 pm**

e_i_pi wrote:
Twill wrote:A great suggestion, and one that has come up before.

A question from me about the incentive of it - a lot of newbies will play higher ranks specifically because of the point incentive. How do you:
a) inform them that they shouldn't go find the highest ranker because it's not going to get them points

Part of the splash screen when you sign up. Something along the lines of "Your first 5 games are for tutorial purposes - no points are scored during these games, so you can play anyone from Cook to Conquerer, gaining experience you'll need when you become a ranked player"
b) keep them incentivized (is that a word) if they don't win points for their first 5 games if points are such a big motivator?

That is a valid concern. I guess the key is to put a positive spin on it by pitching it as tutorial experience. I know when I first joined, I had no idea what was going on until my 10th or so game, and I've been playing isk-Ray for years. It's pretty discouraging losing your first 5 games (which most players do). I guess thinking of it like Newbie School (a la MMORPGS) would be the way I would envisage it working.
c) encourage other users to play newbies if they aren't worth anything and tend to deadbeat?

A answer your question with another querstion Twill How do you discourage other users from playing newbies when they are worth points, and tend to deadbeat?

I don't see many ?s in games I play, I think they tend to get scared away by the rank. The amount of games playing by New Recuits is actually very little, and it may simply have to be accepted as a sacrifice by the community in order to quell the points farming epidemic. The most ?s I ever see are in 8player games on specialised maps, such as Waterloo and Circus Maximus. Ranked players generally don't join these games, as there is an unwritten rule that everyone is allowed to farm newbies unchallenged. This is not acceptable to all - some people find it acceptable, but not all of us, and I'm tired of seeing players on 3500+ points, I join a team game with them, and they can't play for sh*t.

Look really, in response to this last question, sure there are going to be players that avoid playing New Recruits, but then there is also scope for a New Recruits School, like the Society of the Cooks. I would certainly take part in games I knew were worth no points to assist others in learning the game, and I'm not the only one. You could even have a New Recruits forum that new members are automatically signed up for, and you can choose to opt out whenever you want. All newbie questions could be asked and answered there, away from the (sometimes extremely vitriolic and hostile) General Discussion.

This suggestion is not about opening a can of worms, but shutting one. I welcome discussion on it, as I am looking from the perspective of someone who is tired of the routine farming that goes on, so in a way I am biased and have blinkers on. Sometimes though, the solution may not be perfect, but the problems it creates may be less than the problems it solves.

You are RIGHT ON with your assessment. I and many others like yourself, have tried over and over again, to make suggs. to finaly fix this prob. along with the multi prob. But the ''farming'' click does not want to change the status quo. The sad fact is, They tend to inhabbit these forums more than the rest. So they have a louder voice, and are very successful at killing every single idea that would not be in their best interests. I have just about given up on making suggs. It is all, a waste of my time.

I have made numerious suggs. Any of which are better than what we have now. I even went as far, as trying to form a group, with our own rules, insignas and leaderboard. My idea was to use our siggs. as a rolling or scrolling leaderboard of our own. I managed to even recruit a couple dozen members, but it is turning out to be more work than I imagined. I would be happy to turn over the raines to someone that could run with it. It just may be easier to go that route, rather than trying to appeal to CC in this forum. ](*,)

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:40 pm**

e_i_pi wrote:Look really, in response to this last question, sure there are going to be players that avoid playing New Recruits, but then there is also scope for a New Recruits School, like the Society of the Cooks. I would certainly take part in games I knew were worth no points to assist others in learning the game, and I'm not the only one. You could even have a New Recruits forum that new members are automatically signed up for, and you can choose to opt out whenever you want. All newbie questions could be asked and answered there, away from the (sometimes extremely vitriolic and hostile) General Discussion.

This is brilliant. I'm all for the original suggestion as well as any sort of "Battle School" methodology where experts can help people learn new maps and tactics. We did something like this in Xi (though, points were traded, of course) where we typed our strategy into chat as we did our moves so someone who was more of an expert on a given map/setting might help critique and teach. Something like this might indeed keep more people on the site as well as make for even better competition.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:45 pm**

great idea. 8-)

i know this will work because e_p_ie has enough sense, time and intelligence to write an essay defending his suggestion against Twill, the conquerer of bad suggestions.

i think that this is a great idea because new recruits can test out strategies and see how it works before they lose points. however, you do realize, that many newrecruits arent clueless about CC. some do come from playing RISK and are actually good at it. when they beat a high ranking person, he/she may get mad that they dont get points for that, even though they actually know how to play the game. this may cause them to stop playing just go for those international RISK tournaments i hear about every once in a while.

Another great sugg for this could be making a group consisting of high ranked, friendly players called the "Tutors", or something

. they can play everyone on CC, but they are the only people that can play newrecruits. whenever they play noobs, they can offer advice to them for playing. after the noob finishes 5 games or whatever he has to do to finish the noob stage

he can play other people.
great idea, hope it will become a reality. =D>

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:21 pm**

The way I see it has already been stated in the thread. If you sell it like it's a training period, a "Noob Island" type thing, then it will be much easier for new recruits to except. Plus, if anybody with lots of experience comes and actually wins a game, chances are they'll be much less concerned about points as there are no points with the board game, so they'd just be playing for fun (which is what it should be about!). This would be a great suggestion! Though, I think that perhaps we might also want to implement the block for more advanced maps, as those do tend to be rather daunting and could just piss people off if they don't know what they're doing...

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:21 pm**

a nice suggestion! i like many others get annoyed at newb farming... run with it and i hope this gets implimented!

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:46 pm**

hecter wrote: I think that perhaps we might also want to implement the block for more advanced maps, as those do tend to be rather daunting and could just piss people off if they don't know what they're doing...

true- maps like waterloo and Gazala can make some noobs feel intimidated by others.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:53 pm**

hecter wrote:The way I see it has already been stated in the thread. If you sell it like it's a training period, a "Noob Island" type thing, then it will be much easier for new recruits to except. Plus, if anybody with lots of experience comes and actually wins a game, chances are they'll be much less concerned about points as there are no points with the board game, so they'd just be playing for fun (which is what it should be about!). This would be a great suggestion! Though, I think that perhaps we might also want to implement the block for more advanced maps, as those do tend to be rather daunting and could just piss people off if they don't know what they're doing...

If noobs are worth nothing:

An unfair advantage for a player who is now extremely knowledgeable playing with the score of a noob after they play the 5 games
After learning how to play they can now join against high ranks with the skills of someone with a much higher score
The hypocrisy that some people use game specialization (another type of farming)
Discouraging to the noob who may win a big game and get no points
People in multiplayer games can throw the noob the win to prevent themselves from losing points

New noob tutorial (new room):

Others who are not noob gaining practice without point repercussion
People who know they lost might suicide knowing they have nothing to lose; just to end the game (eliminating the educational purpose)

Room where only noobs are allowed:

If only noobs can join then they are learning how to play by playing people who dont know how to play
Noobs cant play there friends who may have played 5 games already
Discouragement out of being segregated from the other players

Not allowing noobs to play certain maps:

It is unfair to take away privileges because they are new to the game and for a noob who is trying to join a game, I imaging seeing that they cant play anything would be very discouraging as well. Furthermore, if you are going to say that maps should be excluded as they are discouraging, then delay tactics should be banned, game chat should be limited to positive "happy thoughts," and sequential multi player games should be eliminated as well as waiting 7 days to play a turn is VERY discouraging.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:55 pm**

Twill wrote:A great suggestion, and one that has come up before.

A question from me about the incentive of it - a lot of newbies will play higher ranks specifically because of the point incentive. How do you:
a) inform them that they shouldn't go find the highest ranker because it's not going to get them points
b) keep them incentivized (is that a word) if they don't win points for their first 5 games if points are such a big motivator?
c) encourage other users to play newbies if they aren't worth anything and tend to deadbeat?

How about an automated pm from the admins descrbing farming in detail and how to avoid it and how to make the best out of their 5 games they have of losing no points
Ex: keep to simple maps like classic set or shapes and stay away from fedual war of AoR maps till u get the hang of things

Nice idea btw

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:58 pm**

Mabey have them get three no point games ohh and the automated pm should include a discourgement from joining 8 player games for a while since they are slow and tell them about tutors and SoC

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:01 pm**

e_i_pi wrote:Concise description:
New Recruits worth 0 points, and gain 0 points.

Specifics:
If a New Recruit loses a game, they lose 0 points, and their opponent gains 0 points. If a New Recruit knocks someone out in Terminator, or gets knocked out, they similarly get / lose 0 points.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
Points farming of New Recruits will no longer occur
Overall points inflation from New Recruits joining only to leave immediately will no longer occur
New Recruits get a chance to learn the basics of how to play and how to use the game page before they risk losing points
New Recruits will be more likely to be returning players, and so paying customers
Creating multi's as sacrifical points lambs will no longer occur
Ex players who have been permabanned will no longer be able to create a new account to attack established players points

Then what is the incentive to play a question mark? Playing one would be like drinking an empty glass of water or sitting down to eat an imaginary meal. It may have been fun when we were playing with our playschool kitchen sets. But in the grown up world It's pointless(Literally). Nobody would want to play them except other question marks. How would that encourage somebody to want to stay a part of the site? "Okay I'm here, *crickets*....anyone"? the noob announces. "Why is nobody joining my games"?, the question mark wonders. "Why is everyone dropping the games I join"?, the new target frustratingly asks. "Why are all the other ?'s not taking their turns"....etc....etc....etc....

Sure another great idea filled with boundless possibility and good cause. But you're failing to see the big picture. Think outside of the box for once people and realize that there is no real answer to this except to just make it against the rules. Which would cause a vast array of separate problems. Ah hem....such as the games that arduously climb their way to the top of the Find A Game List that ?'s will inevitably and anxiously join with great anticipation will be deemed as cheating!" I'm cheating?, But I just started a game and I wasn't watching it for a few days and didn't think it would fill up with ?'s"! "I swear that I wasn't trying to farm please believe me. You do believe me don't you"?

Life lesson: If you thought of it the chances are it's already been thought of, possibly tried, tested, and already deemed to fail. The administrators have the perfect system in place and there is nothing wrong with how it is functioning.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:04 pm**

it just gonna be mad u can't farm any more

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:07 pm**

GrimReaper. wrote:Mabey have them get three no point games ohh and the automated pm should include a discourgement from joining 8 player games for a while since they are slow

I roffled when I read that last part

I make 4 points a game btw, I lost 2 about a week or two ago and I am still working back the points

I made the decision to farm
It is my decision to make
The games I join are of no business to anyone
Any limitation of who people should join games against is against our rights as customers
There is a point system put in place to prevent against farming, and it works

Anyone who wants to join and start the games we (farmers) play that is your decision, but it is not your right to limit our choice in games, or prevent us from playing them in any way. We risk more than anyone else by playing noobs and it is clearly not as easy as everyone is pretending it to be, or many more people would be field marshals and generals.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:31 pm**

maxatstuy wrote:We risk more than anyone else by playing noobs and it is clearly not as easy as everyone is pretending it to be, or many more people would be field marshals and generals.

I rofled when I read that part and spelled it right. Yes its really hard to risk points playing people who most likely deadbeat. Also it is that easy just people have lives.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:36 pm**

Digital Jihad wrote:
maxatstuy wrote:We risk more than anyone else by playing noobs and it is clearly not as easy as everyone is pretending it to be, or many more people would be field marshals and generals.

I rofled when I read that part and spelled it right. Yes its really hard to risk points playing people who most likely deadbeat. Also it is that easy just people have lives.

actually no, I had that conversation with someone:

rofl = rolling on the floor laughing

I used it as a verb with the same meaning as the abbreviation so it takes on the additional "f" since "I rolling on the floor laughinged" makes no sense at all. (it is used in both ways just to clarify)

And whether farming is easy or not, apparently not everyone can do it since, as you said, people have lives. That means that it takes an additional quality to farm which not everyone can do.

As I said before, if it is so easy, do it yourself and try and get field marshal. tbh, you would do well because there isnt much further down you can go, so give it a try; you dont even need to join noob games to make points.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:43 pm**

maxatstuy wrote:
Digital Jihad wrote:
maxatstuy wrote:We risk more than anyone else by playing noobs and it is clearly not as easy as everyone is pretending it to be, or many more people would be field marshals and generals.

I rofled when I read that part and spelled it right. Yes its really hard to risk points playing people who most likely deadbeat. Also it is that easy just people have lives.

actually no, I had that conversation with someone:

rofl = rolling on the floor laughing

I used it as a verb with the same meaning as the abbreviation so it takes on the additional "f" since "I rolling on the floor laughinged" makes no sense at all. (it is used in both ways just to clarify)

And whether farming is easy or not, apparently not everyone can do it since, as you said, people have lives. That means that it takes an additional quality to farm which not everyone can do.

As I said before, if it is so easy, do it yourself and try and get field marshal. tbh, you would do well because there isnt much further down you can go, so give it a try; you dont even need to join noob games to make points.

In that sense most people would have interpreted it as rolled on the floor laughing at that comment... lol

So wait to be a farmer you can't have a life? Well I certainly can never be a farmer sure glad of that.

Yes true I have only 7 games. Though hopefully I can split even with the two eight players I'm in. But guess what I just do not enjoy reading your moronic comments. You're going to be the first person on my foe list.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:45 pm**

Digital Jihad wrote:In that sense most people would have interpreted it as rolled on the floor laughing at that comment... lol

So wait to be a farmer you can't have a life? Well I certainly can never be a farmer sure glad of that.

Yes true I have only 7 games. Though hopefully I can split even with the two eight players I'm in. But guess what I just do not enjoy reading your moronic comments. You're going to be the first person on my foe list.

I dont mind having probable multis foe me

oh, and btw, games like this are way farming is difficult

Game 3619576

You took an 8 with a 6 and didnt lose a man. I saw your games up when you first started, I decided not to join against you and I am glad I didnt. Noob luck is impossible to overcome

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:49 pm**

ROFLATIO!!!

Game 3625203

the noob is a farmer!

:lol:

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:53 pm**

maxatstuy wrote:ROFLATIO!!!

Game 3625203

the noob is a farmer!

Actually I decided to give freestyle another chance, that happened to be the only game up I didn't know he was going to deadbeat. I much rather earn my points legit.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:55 pm**

by don't u guys take it to FW fourm

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:56 pm**

GrimReaper. wrote:by don't u guys take it to FW fourm

Because I have yet to flame him nor do I desire to flame him...its a waste of time

this is about new recruits amnesty

Conquer Club

Suggestion: New Recruit Amnesty (with Poll)

Suggestion: New Recruit Amnesty (with Poll)

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