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For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:19 am

slowreactor wrote:Hmm... I'm not sure if someone asked this already, but what happens to members who were perma-forum-banned under the old scale? Do they still get a chance to come back if they only have repeated minor infactions?

Andy stated they would not be reviewed. I believe that is wrong, that anyone banned previously for anything but truly major issue should get a second chance. A "on shot.. you are out", perhaps, second chance, but a chance.

However, I think admin has spoken and no further changes will be made, now.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:28 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
slowreactor wrote:Hmm... I'm not sure if someone asked this already, but what happens to members who were perma-forum-banned under the old scale? Do they still get a chance to come back if they only have repeated minor infactions?

Andy stated they would not be reviewed. I believe that is wrong, that anyone banned previously for anything but truly major issue should get a second chance. A "on shot.. you are out", perhaps, second chance, but a chance.

However, I think admin has spoken and no further changes will be made, now.



That would be a grave mistake not to review ALL perma-bans and those on shorter lengths of bans.

Change the rules of punishments, should be followed with a blanket amnesty for all.

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Mr Changsha on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:23 am

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
slowreactor wrote:Hmm... I'm not sure if someone asked this already, but what happens to members who were perma-forum-banned under the old scale? Do they still get a chance to come back if they only have repeated minor infactions?

Andy stated they would not be reviewed. I believe that is wrong, that anyone banned previously for anything but truly major issue should get a second chance. A "on shot.. you are out", perhaps, second chance, but a chance.

However, I think admin has spoken and no further changes will be made, now.



That would be a grave mistake not to review ALL perma-bans and those on shorter lengths of bans.

Change the rules of punishments, should be followed with a blanket amnesty for all.

Regards,
General Stoneham


Ah, but if you believe as I do that the escalating system was expressly designed to weed out the unruly, the anarchic and the unconventional under the guise of formality ("Look! There is a set system in place! How can we be doing anything untoward eh?") then you'll see why any they've so far managed to knock off are hardly going to be offered a resurrection. It would kind of defeat the point, wouldn't it?

Andy hoodwinked the community (again.. this after introducing the escalating system through the bigotory guidelines to give the illusion of consultation on that issue...do you remember Andy referring to that thread as evidence of consultation on this point and the forum saying WTF???) into framing this debate about shortening the ban from one year to six months. You would think that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would realise that in effect the bans mean the same thing...especially when you take into account that after the member comes back after his six months (assuming he really loved CC enough to bother) he would be one post away from being banned again for another six months. All this for minor infractions like going off-topic, for example.

Actually, that's a lie. No one gets banned for going off-topic. I should know, about 50% of my posts have been and continue to be off-topic. You actually get banned for laying into a moderator...andy then trawls through your posts for something 'technically in violation' and then bans you for that. How do I know? Because it finally occoured to me a few days after I got my ban that I had called (censored) a junior mod and a pen monitor in GD. A couple of days later I was on a ban. Timminz had a similar experience...

The upshot of all this is that this thread was an absolute waste of energy for a great many honest, trusting people. I mean how many posters actually wanted the six month ban for minor infractions? Any? Please stand up if you did!

The racism thread (Andy's great success so we were led to believe) was also an absolute waste of time too. That was contrived merely to get the community to agree to this escalting system under the pretense of fighting racism. A complete con job that. So many fell for it, sadly.

Finally, the strongest indicator that the forum as a whole is bloody furious with the admins on this site for insulting our collective intelligence is the nominations for OP's consultation group. Look who's getting nominated. Those of us who have consistantly stood up to the administration over the way they treat this forum and its members. Who will be placed in the group? You can be sure as hell it won't be me...
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Mr Changsha on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:45 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Ahoy Folks,

Taking into account the public opinions in this topic (in addition to a number of others located in other topics), along with Team CC input, and lastly with Disciplinary Data History of Conquer Club, the Minor Infractions Disciplinary scale from this date forth will be as follows:

Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, 1 Week Vacation, 1 Month Vacation, 6 Month Vacation* -- *with repeated 6 Month Vacations should any user conduct Minor Infractions upon their release from Vacation.

For now, we've decided to go without the more bulky and more difficult to track system of roll back probationary periods. With the current tools we have in place for Disciplinary Measures, I don't think we can efficiently, consistently, and approriately keep track of an extended system.

===============================

And because while doing Disciplinary Data History research, I found the results to be rather interesting, and I know the community is sometimes interested in hard number, I thought I would share some of the general data numbers with you all. Since January 2006:

  • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc: 51

    • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Gaming Infractions: 41 of 51
    • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Forum Infractions: 10 of 51

      • Total of Permanent Forum Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc, and those who've already reached a Permanent Website Ban: 17

===============

I'll be updating the Community Guidelines and other topics as necessary.


--Andy


Ok, I just went through the entire thread and the only poster who actually agrees with Andy is.........

Colton24!

colton24 wrote:nah it should be kinda like that but like this:
warning
24-hour ban
3-day ban
1-month ban
6-month ban
1-year ban
Get the bleep outta here ( we will take bribes of premuim :mrgreen: )
Get the bleep outta here ( no bribes :lol: )


That's it. Not one other person in this thread actually agreed with what's come out of this. Not one. Oh, JoshyBoy might have agreed with him, but he was winking at me so I took his post as humorous in its intent.

Andy, how do you justify this? Seriously...

andydufrense wrote:with repeated 6 Month Vacations should any user conduct Minor Infractions upon their release from Vacation.


By the way I think the quote above might just be the most kafka-esque thing I have ever read on CC. 'Repeated SIX MONTH vacations' What?????
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Night Strike on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:08 am

Mr Changsha wrote:Andy hoodwinked the community (again.. this after introducing the escalating system through the bigotory guidelines to give the illusion of consultation on that issue...do you remember Andy referring to that thread as evidence of consultation on this point and the forum saying WTF???) into framing this debate about shortening the ban from one year to six months.


The escalating punishment system has always been in place. It just wasn't enforced to the letter because some people would get half a dozen various warnings before receiving a 24 hour vacation. Now that the scales are being followed more consistently (which was a previous complaint of the forum members), people get upset.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:15 am

As mentioned, any roll back method would essentially be unmanageable to keep track of---with the current tools we have in place behind the scenes. I know Lack has planned updates for various behind the scenes things, however, he primarily likes to focus on things that have an impact on a the largest range of users (I.E. mostly game features or things for a large user base, like the Invite Feature for Premiums, and the Trial Pay for Freemiums).

For the most part, as you can see from some of the data that was posted, the largest majority of users on Conquer Club, frequenting the forums or not, have been able to survive and thrive under the Community Guidelines.

Conquer Club is a World Domination website---and we don't profess to be anything else.


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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:48 pm

Nightstrike, after having collected a little empirical data and gotten an overall impression of the punishment system I can say that it sucked. There's a reason people got upset with it. Several reasons in fact, they have been outlined in this thread as well as a few others.

Only one of the reasons has been addressed by the recent change, and not as decisively as most had hoped for.



AndyDufresne wrote:As mentioned, any roll back method would essentially be unmanageable to keep track of---with the current tools we have in place behind the scenes. I know Lack has planned updates for various behind the scenes things, however, he primarily likes to focus on things that have an impact on a the largest range of users (I.E. mostly game features or things for a large user base, like the Invite Feature for Premiums, and the Trial Pay for Freemiums).

For the most part, as you can see from some of the data that was posted, the largest majority of users on Conquer Club, frequenting the forums or not, have been able to survive and thrive under the Community Guidelines.

Conquer Club is a World Domination website---and we don't profess to be anything else.


--Andy

You should become a politician, Andy. Really, you could be highly successful. In this post you tell us that there are things we don't know, that these things may change in the future, that the most sensible system proposed in this thread is unmanageable with the tools you currently have (which we, btw, still don't know anything about) and that everything that is being done is done for the greater good for the greatest number of people.

You don't tell us anything substantial, though.

Even with the most barebone tools imagineable, namely, a list of a person's infractions and the ban/unban button, a rollback system as you call it is manageable. The button is already there, and I really hope you keep records and haven't just been guessing at how long a person's last ban was.


Without probationary periods to give people a chance to shorten their next ban, 6 months are far too long for minor infractions. Changsha quite eloquently described just what 6 months are, half a year for going off-topic or this undefined "trolling" is draconic, especially if it's 6 months for each infraction.

Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:26 pm

MeDeFe wrote:Nightstrike, after having collected a little empirical data and gotten an overall impression of the punishment system I can say that it sucked. There's a reason people got upset with it. Several reasons in fact, they have been outlined in this thread as well as a few others.

Only one of the reasons has been addressed by the recent change, and not as decisively as most had hoped for.



AndyDufresne wrote:As mentioned, any roll back method would essentially be unmanageable to keep track of---with the current tools we have in place behind the scenes. I know Lack has planned updates for various behind the scenes things, however, he primarily likes to focus on things that have an impact on a the largest range of users (I.E. mostly game features or things for a large user base, like the Invite Feature for Premiums, and the Trial Pay for Freemiums).

For the most part, as you can see from some of the data that was posted, the largest majority of users on Conquer Club, frequenting the forums or not, have been able to survive and thrive under the Community Guidelines.

Conquer Club is a World Domination website---and we don't profess to be anything else.


--Andy

You should become a politician, Andy. Really, you could be highly successful. In this post you tell us that there are things we don't know, that these things may change in the future, that the most sensible system proposed in this thread is unmanageable with the tools you currently have (which we, btw, still don't know anything about) and that everything that is being done is done for the greater good for the greatest number of people.

You don't tell us anything substantial, though.

Even with the most barebone tools imagineable, namely, a list of a person's infractions and the ban/unban button, a rollback system as you call it is manageable. The button is already there, and I really hope you keep records and haven't just been guessing at how long a person's last ban was.


Without probationary periods to give people a chance to shorten their next ban, 6 months are far too long for minor infractions. Changsha quite eloquently described just what 6 months are, half a year for going off-topic or this undefined "trolling" is draconic, especially if it's 6 months for each infraction.

Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?


It's apparent, the Moderators and Administrators of C.C. want to continue to use a sledge hammer on a tack, instead of using a light touch of a finger to secure it.

As usual we have the Moderators and others from C.C. rounding their wagons in defense of their heavy-handed tactics against minor infractions. They seem to be drunk on the power to be able to exile the political dissidents of C.C.

Very sad and disappointing.

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 pm

MeDeFe wrote:Even with the most barebone tools imagineable, namely, a list of a person's infractions and the ban/unban button, a rollback system as you call it is manageable.


Truthfully, it seems to me that a simple Excel spreadsheet with multiple accesses to it (for each of the mods/admins) would take care of it quite nicely. I would certainly be willing to create it for Andy, if he felt the technical know-how for it was missing (what can I say, I'm an Excel wizard).

MeDeFe wrote:Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?


For this, I don't think you CAN draw a line. It seems to me that there has to be some "human judgement" to make this sort of a determination.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Timminz on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:41 pm

Woodruff wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?


For this, I don't think you CAN draw a line. It seems to me that there has to be some "human judgement" to make this sort of a determination.

Agreed, yet I feel that I could make the distinction clearly.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby EvilCookie on Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:16 pm

Why are these forums even so strict? Compared to other forums.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Artimis on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:46 am

EvilCookie wrote:Why are these forums even so strict? Compared to other forums.


It wasn't always the case, it's a recent development(the last 4 months or so):

Subject: Flame Wars Removed

Hyasri wrote:Unlike the beautiful colo(u)r scheme we launched on April 1st as an April Fools joke, the removal of Flame Wars was no joke. We have given this a lot of thought and consideration and agree that Flame Wars no longer fits into the future vision for the site. It was becoming more clear that the flames were spilling out of that forum and taking up more moderation time to sort out.

We were also concerned about the unfriendly atmosphere this was generating for new people. I realise this will be an unpopular move with some of you, but I can assure you a lot of thought has gone into this.

Peace & Love will also be removed very shortly, that was fun while it lasted :P
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:19 am

i find it very difficult to believe that you can't rescind DM's ban, especially since it was absolutely bogus... i mean, how difficult could it be for you to go back a few WEEKS and reconsider what it was that you guys did to DM for nothing more than playing with your minds and rules, and only breaking one of them (hint, he did not break a rule). stating that you won't roll back punishments for previous infractions is just ludicrous. you stated how few perma-bans are due to forum activity. how hard could it be for you create another admin, like hysari (hi! sorry!), and to re-evaluate each case and reconsider the perma-bans? great that a change has been made. unbending in your unwillingness to reconsider that team CC slayed a vibrant part/contributor to the forums over nothing more than the fact that he out foxed, outsmarted and bruised your egos... nice change, now you should reconsider looking back into all the forum bans, since there aren't that many, and it truly wouldn't take that much time to do...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:56 pm

Are you going to institute banning of players that beat mods/admins in games?.....you may as well as that fits with current mod/admin behaviour
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:16 am

Blanket amnesty for all, except for multis and cheaters!

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:22 pm

when is andy coming back? or is that it? ducking the obvious questions about how this pertains to DM and a few others that don't deserve perma-bans?-0

owenshooter wrote:i find it very difficult to believe that you can't rescind DM's ban, especially since it was absolutely bogus... i mean, how difficult could it be for you to go back a few WEEKS and reconsider what it was that you guys did to DM for nothing more than playing with your minds and rules, and only breaking one of them (hint, he did not break a rule). stating that you won't roll back punishments for previous infractions is just ludicrous. you stated how few perma-bans are due to forum activity. how hard could it be for you create another admin, like hysari (hi! sorry!), and to re-evaluate each case and reconsider the perma-bans? great that a change has been made. unbending in your unwillingness to reconsider that team CC slayed a vibrant part/contributor to the forums over nothing more than the fact that he out foxed, outsmarted and bruised your egos... nice change, now you should reconsider looking back into all the forum bans, since there aren't that many, and it truly wouldn't take that much time to do...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:31 pm

I think he's hoping we'll get bored and let this die, or, alternatively, that we'll bump this thread so often that it will at some point be declared to have gone "off-topic" and be locked.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby squishyg on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Ahoy Folks,

Taking into account the public opinions in this topic (in addition to a number of others located in other topics), along with Team CC input, and lastly with Disciplinary Data History of Conquer Club, the Minor Infractions Disciplinary scale from this date forth will be as follows:

Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, 1 Week Vacation, 1 Month Vacation, 6 Month Vacation* -- *with repeated 6 Month Vacations should any user conduct Minor Infractions upon their release from Vacation.

For now, we've decided to go without the more bulky and more difficult to track system of roll back probationary periods. With the current tools we have in place for Disciplinary Measures, I don't think we can efficiently, consistently, and approriately keep track of an extended system.

===============================

And because while doing Disciplinary Data History research, I found the results to be rather interesting, and I know the community is sometimes interested in hard number, I thought I would share some of the general data numbers with you all. Since January 2006:

  • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc: 51

    • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Gaming Infractions: 41 of 51
    • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Forum Infractions: 10 of 51

      • Total of Permanent Forum Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc, and those who've already reached a Permanent Website Ban: 17

===============

I'll be updating the Community Guidelines and other topics as necessary.


--Andy



Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:42 pm

That sounds VERY reasonable Squishy....good suggestion
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:23 am

squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:59 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:03 am

MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?


You are mistaken in thinking Dancing Mustard was apart of the group. Squishyg was referring to those who received a complete website vacation. Dancing Mustard is only on a complete Forum Vacation.


--Andy
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:30 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?

You are mistaken in thinking Dancing Mustard was apart of the group. Squishyg was referring to those who received a complete website vacation. Dancing Mustard is only on a complete Forum Vacation.


--Andy

Ah, I think you're right, when she said "permabanned" I took it to mean from the forums and not from the website.

Well, in that case I will just float the idea of reviewing the cases of the 17 who have been permanently forumbanned.
Last edited by MeDeFe on Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:55 pm

No worries---I usually try to avoid using plain "permaban" or permavacation without qualifiers---such as Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, or Complete Website, as the term often isn't descriptive enough.

As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.


--Andy
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:25 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.

Which means...
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
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