Conquer Club

gimil wrote:A debate is simply a conflict of opinions owen so a debate will simple give red more opinions to use.

owenshooter wrote:

gimil wrote:A debate is simply a conflict of opinions owen so a debate will simple give red more opinions to use.

then change the title from OPINION to DEBATE. you are not interested in listening, just like in the foundry. if you ask for an opinion, you should let people give their opinions.-0

samuelc812 wrote:

owenshooter wrote:

gimil wrote:A debate is simply a conflict of opinions owen so a debate will simple give red more opinions to use.

then change the title from OPINION to DEBATE. you are not interested in listening, just like in the foundry. if you ask for an opinion, you should let people give their opinions.-0

Everyone is free to give their opinion just like you're giving you're opinion, but your opinion is not the only one and gimil is also free to state his opinion no matter how opposite it is to your view. Just because you state your opinion does not mean everyone has to conform and start to have the same opinion. I fail to see how gimil is preventing others from stating their opinion?

samuelc812 wrote:Everyone is free to give their opinion just like you're giving you're opinion, but your opinion is not the only one and gimil is also free to state his opinion no matter how opposite it is to your view. Just because you state your opinion does not mean everyone has to conform and start to have the same opinion. I fail to see how gimil is preventing others from stating their opinion?

jbrettlip wrote:and you guys are unable to see why nobody goes to the foundry? it is right here in this thread and you are too arrogant to see it. gimil is arguing. stating an opinion for a newsletter does not mean open public debate about everything people state as reasons for not going to the foundry. if you want to debate it, take it to the foundry. if you want to hear peoples opinions about why they don't visit the foundry. sit still and let them express their opinions. this is exactly why people avoid the foundry and the newsletter.

owenshooter wrote:what a shock.. another foundry question from the foundry heavy newsletter that is still stickied down the GD's throat... even more shocking, if you read the thread, you can already see what the foundry is unable to see. what is that? why it is so few venture back into the foundry after visiting it at all... wouldn't shock me at all if Insomnia were asked to pose this question in the first place, by one of the foundry guys running the show at the COMMUNITY newsletter...-0

Are you seroious?...

MrBenn wrote:For people who have the ability to make good-looking, well-thought-out and balanced maps, the foundry process is unnecessarily and painfully slow.

The only way to speed up the process (without more cries of nepotism and elitism) is for more people to engage with it. If every person who posted an idea was to engage and follow one or two other maps, the foundry would be a better place for everybody.

In some ways, a map thread is like a tournament thread: anybody can get involved, regardless of score, rank or premium/freemium. Incandenza, iancanton and DJ Teflon are a few people who have never made a map themselves, but have contributed greatly to the foundry. I think these people are shining examples of how to engage with the process without becoming frustrated with it. IT's exactly the same with joining a tournament - all you have to do is to engage with the games/map when the next batch/update comes out.

My frustration with the foundry, is that there are simply not enough people taking part. Right now there seem to be more mapmakers than contributors, which is why I voted "I am in the process of making a map and I am finding it hard without the community's constructive help." I'd equate this statement to one that could read "I am in the process of running a tournament and I am finding it hard without enough people signing-up to take part.

So, what should I do next? Where do I go to get a new direction? What aspects of my idea are good or bad? If something doesn't work, then how should I go about fixing it? As far as I'm concerned, any and all feedback is welcome. If you don't like something, then feel free to share your opinion, but please give the mapmaker something reasoned and constructive to work with. The most beneficial feedback is that which puts some thought into how things can be improved.

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Timminz wrote:In my opinion, if the foundry would like to see more regular contributors, perhaps they should listen to the reasons people are giving for avoiding it, rather than telling them that they are wrong.

oaktown wrote:just about a month ago I mentioned to the foundry mod team that we have gone a long time without one of these little revolutions. They happen every six months or so, and they're always about the same problems: the Foundry is cliquey, the process is too subjective, new mapmakers/posters aren't treated with respect, folks outside of the Foundry are afraid to come in here, there's a cancer in the Foundry, etc. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts...

The Foundry functions as a community, and is therefore based on relationships. If you want to call that "cliquey," go right ahead. I call it life. The longer you stick around the more you come to respect the opinions of certain individuals, and you learn to roll your eyes at other individuals - that's the way the world works. If I have a question about graphics, gameplay, or XML, I know who I want to turn to for answers. And if I am fed up by somebody's bullshit, I have other people I turn to. That's the way a community of individuals functions, both in the real world and online.

(And for anybody who thinks that the AADOMM is a group of folks who think we're better than the rest of you losers and that we're doing uber-secret special stuff, I will let you in on a little secret: most of the posts in there are all about calling each other douches. Really. Well, that and mibi telling showing us the latest poster he made. It's pretty exciting stuff. Oh, and I voted the third "AADOMM" option just to be an ass. )

The Foundry process is very subjective, and it should be. If I just had a checklist of what I have to have on a map, I could make an acceptable map in two days and have it live for play. A purely objective process would be well suited for me and cairnswk and anybody else who has made a few maps, because we have figured out how to make smooth borders, clean text, and write code. It would, however, drastically reduce the quality of the maps we play on. This process would be nothing without subjectige, constructive criticism.

The real matter isn't whether or not the process should be subjective, but who are the gatekeepers. Was I the best choice to be gameplay CA for eleven months? Is MrBenn the best choice for Drafts CA? Gimil for graphics? Hell, I don't know, but I was asked to give it a shot and I said yes. If by saying yes I instantly became part of the problem around here in your eyes, so be it.

The process is really hard on new mapmakers. It really friggin is. Over the two years that I've been around we have developed a lot of expectations, many of which are unwritten and can overwhelm a new mapmaker. But I think that the expectations are applied fairly evenly to new and old mapmakers alike - which is why we've seen two of our most prolific mapmakers withdraw from mapmaking in the past month out of frustration with the expectations we have for each other around here.

Is anybody specifically targeting new mapmakers? Of course not. None of the old hands is trolling the map threads of new mapmakers just to tear them a new one and send them screaming to their mamas. But none of the old hands is stepping up to coach new mapmakers through the process either - which is something that I intend to do now that I've freed myself of some other responsibilities. (More on this later.)

Non-foundry CC users think we're nuts. Let's see... we spend six months of our lives crafting a map image that may never be played, with no hope of reward other than another hash mark on a medal. Yeah, I'd say we're nuts. The place can still be confusing to newcomers, and many first time posters get flamed (as Woodruff did this week -- thanks for sticking around despite that, and I hope we see more of you). Yet in my opinion we have more thoughtful, active, talented new blood around right now than we have in ages. There are some really nice maps out there right now by new mapmakers, as well as some pretty awful ones.

The Foundry is going through some growing pains. Eighteen months ago, the Foundry staff was basically one person: Coleman. Andy stuck his head in now and again, but Coleman ran the show. And it worked, because there were only about a dozen serious map threads going at a time. When it got a too big for Coleman, Gimil and I came on and we introduced the Gameplay and Graphics stamps, and the place ran pretty smoothly for most of a year. Now the place is bursting at the seams, and we're trying to sort out how to best run a Foundry with dozens of maps in various stages of development. The CAs have to spend more of their time playing disciplinarian than looking at maps (which is why I gave up the post), and we've both new and veteran mapmakers picking up their toys and going home angry.

Do we need some change around here? Sure, but that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. We've been through such growing pains before and we've sorted it out. This is our mess, we made it, and we need to figure out what to do about it. We're all a part of the problem, and we can all be a part of the solution. So if you have any possible solutions, throw them out there.

I'll stop there... I really should bookmark this post so I can re-use it in six months when this comes up again.

oaktown wrote:just about a month ago I mentioned to the foundry mod team that we have gone a long time without one of these little revolutions.

Timminz wrote:Here's my impression of a good portion of this thread.

Person A: Here is my opinion of why I don't frequent the foundry, and why I think other people are the same way.

Person B: That opinion is invalid. The foundry is just fine.

In my opinion, if the foundry would like to see more regular contributors, perhaps they should listen to the reasons people are giving for avoiding it, rather than telling them that they are wrong.

MrBenn wrote:owen, please stop contributing.

I don't like what you're saying.

MrBenn wrote:The first two pages of this thread can be summarised thusly:

jiminski - was a good foundry contributor who got pissed off by the Brazil revamp.
squishyg - feels a little intimidated by long threads, doesn't feel he has anything to contribute beyond a certain point
sinctheassassin - feels that nobody cares about the foundry or shows their interest by posting
Danyael - would like more people to comment on maps
sully800 - there are over 100 maps on the site, and there aren't too many niches left to fill
jiminski - some maps gain cult following, but first-timers are likely to struggle to gain recognition
gimil - experienced mapmakers gain support by virtue of being good at making maps
jiminski - determination is vital until you are able to gain a reputation
Woodruff - Had a map idea that was pretty much ignored, and feels non-welcomed as a non-regular
owenshooter - fed up with the foundry being stuffed down people's throats; says few people venture back after visiting
mibi - retired from mapmaking, and there are too many maps to bother to comment on
Bruceswar - Regulars are praised/thanked, newcomers are criticised and never return, so the same people comment on map after map.
gimil - the foundry has its share of problems, but elitism isn't one of them
Bruceswar - everybody has to start somewhere. The foundry process is too anal over small details and is pretty backwards.
sully800 - the process is too long and tedious. The main thing that would help are more comments from more people who stick around
gimil - The 'anality' helps produce high quality maps. Increased quality by being anal is not going backwards. would like the foundry process tightened/sped up and but can't think of a viable solution without reducing quality
owenshooter - where was the tough love for Puget Sound (et al), which should have spent longer in the foundry getting more input. the foundry is elitist and is not inviting. it is a wonderful place that is fun to visit and poke around but the regulars seem to drive fresh faces away in droves
gimil - there are some people who's opinion holds more weight with me, becasue they know what they're talking about. most people in the foundry only aim to contribute to the site
samuelc812 - people get frustrated with the process in the most part because they don't have the graphic ability or their idea is not appealing to the community. perserverance is the key. try picking a promising map that you like provide feedback and be helpful
owenshooter - you are not interested in listening, just like in the foundry. if you ask for an opinion, you should let people give their opinions
samuelc812 - Just because you state your opinion does not mean everyone has to conform and start to have the same opinion.
jbrettlip - you guys are unable to see why nobody goes to the foundry, you are too arrogant to see it. this is exactly why people avoid the foundry.
RjBeals - the foundry has waves of activity depending on who is active. I don't know why people think the foundry is full of snobs. There's lots of ideas posted every week. If there's nobody there to tell these people how it really is, you'd be playing on worse maps than Puget Sound.
owenshooter - the foundry has a very poor reputation in the forums. it is a terrible place to venture into fresh faced and bright eyed if you think you are going to be able to freely speak. the foundry is a good ol' boys club

MrBenn wrote:The truth of the matter is that we don't suffer fools (or trolls) gladly in the foundry.

RjBeals wrote:so.. we should shut down the foundry? And stop the production of maps?.. I don't know of a better (free) way Lack could do it. None of the foundry mods get paid. None of the map makers get paid.

Timminz wrote:

MrBenn wrote:The truth of the matter is that we don't suffer fools (or trolls) gladly in the foundry.

The irony of you using that statement, while attempting to refute elitism, astounds me.

I beg your pardon for sharing my opinion. Silly me for thinking the title of the thread was asking for it.

MrBenn wrote:

Timminz wrote:

MrBenn wrote:The truth of the matter is that we don't suffer fools (or trolls) gladly in the foundry.

The irony of you using that statement, while attempting to refute elitism, astounds me.

I beg your pardon for sharing my opinion. Silly me for thinking the title of the thread was asking for it.

So which are you? A fool or a troll?