Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

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The described situation from first post is:

Against rules
72
60%
Not again rules, but cheap play
33
27%
Not against rules, totally legal play
16
13%
 
Total votes : 121

Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby KraphtOne on Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
KraphtOne wrote:Game 8553895
Game 10765409

hmmm, one of these things is not like the other...


but yeah you're awesome...


The other players chose not to coordinate---in the face of K & X's open diplomacy. Who's fault is that? The other 6 players.


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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:25 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
and re: underlined, if you believe that speculation and angry mobs is a good way of enforcing and creating rules, then you believe in #2 and forego the benefits of #1.

Nobody is acting angry-mobbish BBS. This whole thing is just insulting is all.
Just because a shady practice is not written word for word in the rules doesn't mean it's not cheating. If someone comes up with a hack that alters the dice are you going to argue that it's not stated in the rules that you can't do so and therefore the points gained from said hack should remain? No, that would be ridiculous.

BigBallinStalin wrote:Given these constraints, we have that vague "abuse of the game" rule

It's vague for a reason. Its vague so that it can be applied to any obvious cheating and people don't have to hire a lawyer over the details. It's a safety measure to ensure that when someone is caught cheating they can't worm their way out of it by a technicality.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(1) We can establish new rules for determining collusion because:

(a) I support the rule of law--i.e. equality before the law.
(b) Clearer rules diminish the possibility of perverse incentives (e.g. Conqueror Corruption).
(c) Clearer methods of prosecution reduce costs (e.g. 15 pages of this thread) and reduce the chance of accidentally enforcing injustice.[/list]


This just doesn't work here BBS. There would be too much time dedicated to making new rules every time someone comes up with new and creative ways to cheat. While the system is being "perfected"(pipe dream) as you suggest, dishonest players will continue to screw up the scoreboard. This has happened in the past and as a result there are quite a few players in the hall of fame who really shouldn't be there. Basically it's not enough to just change the rules, there has to be some adjustment to the record for the outcome to be fair. I'm not sure how I feel about a ban but there must be some sort of point reset and absolutely the conqueror medal needs to be removed.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(2) or we can say, 'f*ck that' and appeal to the Ban Hammer.

I want more of #1 and less of #2, so that these entanglements can be somewhat reduced in the future.


If your worry is that these guys will be banned by the authoritarian regime then why not start a thread based on that? Focusing on this point here just seems like going off on a tangent.
As far as the entanglements being reduced in the future it's arguable that banning these players could be just as, if not more effective than what you are proposing. The message for future players will be: Don't cheat or you'll get shamed and banned.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:54 pm

KraphtOne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
KraphtOne wrote:Game 8553895
Game 10765409

hmmm, one of these things is not like the other...


but yeah you're awesome...


The other players chose not to coordinate---in the face of K & X's open diplomacy. Who's fault is that? The other 6 players.


Image


I'm pretty serious about this. I've noticed two people openly coordinating in some of my games, but I don't go to the fora to contribute to the Ban Hammer agitation.

If I couldn't convince other players to counter an alliance through OPEN DIPLOMACY, then I need to (a) get better at marketing that plan, or (b) foe people (which many here do), or (c) spend time talking to people to convince them to do (a) and to stop being so emotional.

We should work on changing the rules of this place, instead of acting like some mob.


    (1) We can establish new rules for determining collusion because:

    (a) I support the rule of law--i.e. equality before the law.
    (b) Clearer rules diminish the possibility of perverse incentives (e.g. Conqueror Corruption).
    (c) Clearer methods of prosecution reduce costs (e.g. 15 pages of this thread) and reduce the chance of accidentally enforcing injustice.



    (2) or we can say, 'f*ck that' and appeal to the Ban Hammer.

    I want more of #1 and less of #2, so that these entanglements can be somewhat reduced in the future.

Are you one of those #2 users? I hope not because it won't help to solve these problems in the future.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:05 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
and re: underlined, if you believe that speculation and angry mobs is a good way of enforcing and creating rules, then you believe in #2 and forego the benefits of #1.

Nobody is acting angry-mobbish BBS. This whole thing is just insulting is all.
Just because a shady practice is not written word for word in the rules doesn't mean it's not cheating. If someone comes up with a hack that alters the dice are you going to argue that it's not stated in the rules that you can't do so and therefore the points gained from said hack should remain? No, that would be ridiculous.


The underlined isn't relevant. The route to #2 foregoes the benefits of #1. I hope you acknowledge that.

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Given these constraints, we have that vague "abuse of the game" rule

It's vague for a reason. Its vague so that it can be applied to any obvious cheating and people don't have to hire a lawyer over the details. It's a safety measure to ensure that when someone is caught cheating they can't worm their way out of it by a technicality.


Gee, really? Why not invest time in clarifying the means of enforcement? That's pretty much my stance here.

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(1) We can establish new rules for determining collusion because:

(a) I support the rule of law--i.e. equality before the law.
(b) Clearer rules diminish the possibility of perverse incentives (e.g. Conqueror Corruption).
(c) Clearer methods of prosecution reduce costs (e.g. 15 pages of this thread) and reduce the chance of accidentally enforcing injustice.[/list]


This just doesn't work here BBS. There would be too much time dedicated to making new rules every time someone comes up with new and creative ways to cheat. While the system is being "perfected"(pipe dream) as you suggest, dishonest players will continue to screw up the scoreboard. This has happened in the past and as a result there are quite a few players in the hall of fame who really shouldn't be there. Basically it's not enough to just change the rules, there has to be some adjustment to the record for the outcome to be fair. I'm not sure how I feel about a ban but there must be some sort of point reset and absolutely the conqueror medal needs to be removed.


It's not just about changing the rules. It's about changing "the rules for determining collusion." Determining collusion. Determining collusion.

I agree with your last sentence, which may attain #1, (b), so in a sense you actually agree with me. Heyyy!


If the community can create scripts which can do some serious statistical 'lifting', then why shouldn't we encourage the development of some script which can be used to determine if collusion is or is not occurring?

That's one of the points with this discussion. Surely, you wouldn't outright reject tapping into the market of coders here?
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:24 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
I agree with your last sentence, which may attain #1, (b), so in a sense you actually agree with me. Heyyy!


If the community can create scripts which can do some serious statistical 'lifting', then why shouldn't we encourage the development of some script which can be used to determine if collusion is or is not occurring?

That's one of the points with this discussion. Surely, you wouldn't outright reject tapping into the market of coders here?


I think we do agree about this for the most part BBS because I think you are a sensible person. However, playing the devils advocate on this one is going to rub me the wrong way for obvious reasons, mainly the obvious nature of this case.
I have no objection to coding the game to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening again but I feel that is something that goes without saying? However, priority one I believe is to clean house. Do I think a ban is extreme? Probably. Would I rather a ban than nothing be done at all? Probably.
When I get the impression that the focus is being turned away from the colluding parties and onto the other players in the mentioned games or even the game itself I've got to object because the other players in the games don't necessarily realize that Kiron and his fellow "colluder" are pals beyond the scope of the one instance in the one game. If you played with these guys on a regular basis and you noticed a pattern(which does exist) then yeah, you're obligated to join forces against these guys but if you are looking at the game as you would from the perspective of one that doesn't assume automatic collusion between these guys then you can see how it's unfair.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:30 am

Quasi-Defendant's Closing Remarks

(1) I wanted some of us (including lurkers) to focus on finding solutions that attack the fundamental problems here. Although A statistical approach seems cost-prohibitive (3rd Par.), I implore some entrepreneurs to address my concerns and the concerns of others, so that a good script for highlighting possible collusion can be created.

(2) Most of the opposition to K&X is too focused on Open Diplomacy itself. I've already addressed this concern here (second paragraph), so any superficial defense based upon open diplomacy alone should be thrown out.
    Without sufficient evidence, a punishment against them establishes the disincentive of coordinating through open diplomacy with friends, acquaintances, or perhaps even strangers in any free-for-all CC game. We should recognize the consequences of this perverse incentive.

(3) Most importantly, some have a good case for punishment because they suspect inconsistencies between openly diplomatic plans and allegedly covert plans. IF in any of their games, K&X enact a plan contrary to their openly stated chat, then the collusion becomes clearer. With this in mind, the #3 argument against K&X becomes superior to the "open diplomacy only" cases.



The following has posed a significant challenge to my defense of K&X:
In defense of K&X, I cannot sufficiently refute those challenges. Nevertheless, until a sufficient case regarding #3 is clearly established, we should remain skeptical of K&X's alleged collusion. (I admit that I may have missed a complete #3 argument ITT).
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:(3) Most importantly, some have a good case for punishment because they suspect inconsistencies between openly diplomatic plans and allegedly covert plans. IF in any of their games, K&X enact a plan contrary to their openly stated chat, then the collusion becomes clearer. With this in mind, the #3 argument against K&X becomes superior to the "open diplomacy only" cases.


In an ordinary singles game it's understood that each person's goal is to win that particular game. An agreement that goes against this goal in any particular game has to be either SD over the course of at least one game or point dumping so either way it's against the rules.
See, it doesn't matter if the chat matches the plan of the game if the plan obviously shows one player paving the road for the other.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:11 am

Is it crystal meth that just makes someone write a load of bollocks?
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(3) Most importantly, some have a good case for punishment because they suspect inconsistencies between openly diplomatic plans and allegedly covert plans. IF in any of their games, K&X enact a plan contrary to their openly stated chat, then the collusion becomes clearer. With this in mind, the #3 argument against K&X becomes superior to the "open diplomacy only" cases.


In an ordinary singles game it's understood that each person's goal is to win that particular game. An agreement that goes against this goal in any particular game has to be either SD over the course of at least one game or point dumping so either way it's against the rules.
See, it doesn't matter if the chat matches the plan of the game if the plan obviously shows one player paving the road for the other.


This argument was already addressed, so I don't have to repeat myself or the arguments of others which countered this.

Chariot of Fire wrote:Is it crystal meth that just makes someone write a load of bollocks?


Does increased exposure to pollution in large cities cause an increase in logical fallacies?
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby kentington on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:53 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(3) Most importantly, some have a good case for punishment because they suspect inconsistencies between openly diplomatic plans and allegedly covert plans. IF in any of their games, K&X enact a plan contrary to their openly stated chat, then the collusion becomes clearer. With this in mind, the #3 argument against K&X becomes superior to the "open diplomacy only" cases.


In an ordinary singles game it's understood that each person's goal is to win that particular game. An agreement that goes against this goal in any particular game has to be either SD over the course of at least one game or point dumping so either way it's against the rules.
See, it doesn't matter if the chat matches the plan of the game if the plan obviously shows one player paving the road for the other.


This argument was already addressed, so I don't have to repeat myself or the arguments of others which countered this.

Chariot of Fire wrote:Is it crystal meth that just makes someone write a load of bollocks?


Does increased exposure to pollution in large cities cause an increase in logical fallacies?



Game 10765409
That is the game that Kraphtone posted. To me it follows number threes argument. The first chat is Xiang asking for a truce from teal, but it seems like there was already an unspoken truce with Kiron (red) and xiangwang (grey).
They also mention that their plan is to be in the final three, which seems pretty standard, but they are always trying to both be in the final three and they will both backstab the third man out. I know they say that in chat at the end but it seems to be their plan every game, make sure it is them at the end.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:44 pm

f*ck yea, kenington. I've added you to the list of those who pose "a significant challenge to my defense of K&X."

Oh, furthermore, if a pattern of that kind of behavior can be demonstrated (which may have been done ITT), this would sufficiently fulfill the criteria of evidence against K&X; therefore, we would have to all fully support their punishment--
    --which may include temporary exile, stripping of their medals, some kind of point reduction, and removing that Conqueror title from him.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Tenebrus on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:14 pm

The verdict is in, and it's a one week ban and a bar from playing together. I guess that the mods will get a lot of flak for that ruling, as it won't satisfy either side completely, but IMO it's a good, fair ruling with a very complicated and unclear fact pattern. Shame to have another conqueror under a C&A cloud but going forward I think the decision was the right one.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Izual_Rebirth on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:58 pm

Sitting on the fence then...
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:39 pm

well kiron will going to activate hes third housemate now. :)
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby kentington on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:03 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:f*ck yea, kenington. I've added you to the list of those who pose "a significant challenge to my defense of K&X."

Oh, furthermore, if a pattern of that kind of behavior can be demonstrated (which may have been done ITT), this would sufficiently fulfill the criteria of evidence against K&X; therefore, we would have to all fully support their punishment--
    --which may include temporary exile, stripping of their medals, some kind of point reduction, and removing that Conqueror title from him.


Right on brotha! I am all for the people having the ability to shun those who deserve it and not taking unnecessary action, but there are times when it is abused and people who have no way of knowing get involved and are given poor treatment because of lack of moderation.
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