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Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

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The described situation from first post is:

Against rules
72
60%
Not again rules, but cheap play
33
27%
Not against rules, totally legal play
16
13%
 
Total votes : 121

Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:44 pm

f*ck yea, kenington. I've added you to the list of those who pose "a significant challenge to my defense of K&X."

Oh, furthermore, if a pattern of that kind of behavior can be demonstrated (which may have been done ITT), this would sufficiently fulfill the criteria of evidence against K&X; therefore, we would have to all fully support their punishment--
    --which may include temporary exile, stripping of their medals, some kind of point reduction, and removing that Conqueror title from him.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Tenebrus on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:14 pm

The verdict is in, and it's a one week ban and a bar from playing together. I guess that the mods will get a lot of flak for that ruling, as it won't satisfy either side completely, but IMO it's a good, fair ruling with a very complicated and unclear fact pattern. Shame to have another conqueror under a C&A cloud but going forward I think the decision was the right one.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Izual_Rebirth on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:58 pm

Sitting on the fence then...
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:39 pm

well kiron will going to activate hes third housemate now. :)
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby kentington on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:03 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:f*ck yea, kenington. I've added you to the list of those who pose "a significant challenge to my defense of K&X."

Oh, furthermore, if a pattern of that kind of behavior can be demonstrated (which may have been done ITT), this would sufficiently fulfill the criteria of evidence against K&X; therefore, we would have to all fully support their punishment--
    --which may include temporary exile, stripping of their medals, some kind of point reduction, and removing that Conqueror title from him.


Right on brotha! I am all for the people having the ability to shun those who deserve it and not taking unnecessary action, but there are times when it is abused and people who have no way of knowing get involved and are given poor treatment because of lack of moderation.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby AslanTheKing on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:46 pm

lets say i want to play kiron/xiangwang gangbang style with one of my clanmates,
and one has to benefit from the other( gamethrowing)
even i want to throw the game there has to be the right playing order,
its no point that i have 4 spoils, reduce my troops -and my clanmate is not playing right after me ( so the player after me has to be my clanmate who kills me and gets the points.

other than that, u need to use some sort of information channel to discuss your strategay and moves,
this can be done through pm ( the chat is too obvious)
but if u use a pm, some day that will be the evidence the mods are gonna look at - so its not possible

u could discuss it at personal email

or have a nice cup of coffee ( sorry meant nice cup of dragon well green tea of course)
and talk personaly to your HOUSEMATE

i am really having great entertainment reading every page,

for my part i know how much of cheating brought this guys to their ranks,
but cheating maybe is the wrong word, its an alliance , unspoken secret diplomacy ,
and by practising it long enough it gets every game easier

( when risk was on facebook 2009 ( after it disapeared) i was so fed up playing with guys who used this style ( u know the patterns of the moves with time )
i opened up a second browser, logged in as my wife- and guess what? I KICKED THEIR ASS; BUT REALLY; IT WAS SOOOOO EASY )get the point?
for kiron and xiangwang
(here we are now, sooner or later i knew we will have this discussion,
first of all i mentioned what i think of this strategy
that was jan 2011
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=117940&start=45)

all worked fine, but if u reach a certain rank and points, things get difficult
( there might be so many playing maybe this style, but as long they are stuck between 1500 and 2500 - who cares? )

in my opinion, sorry kiron, i am just beeing very fair and honest here,
kiron should get a warning from CC,
and he has to give the Conqueror medal back

( then even Aslantheking has more medals than kiron :lol: :lol: :lol: :o :o :o :lol: :lol: :lol: )

and the overwhelming majority of CC players are not buying this crap

( if it looks too good, it aint )

"Bad reasoning as well as good reasoning is possible; and this fact is the foundation of the practical side of logic."
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use your common sense guys
I used to roll the daizz
Feel the fear in my enemy´s eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing:

Long live the Army Of Kings !


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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:14 pm

Butters1919 wrote:I'll post it in both threads pertaining to the topic:
It takes many games to make conqueror. So long as they are not all of the same sort (ahem: GLG) then it's all fine. Let's all be realistic, should any one of us become conqueror, we likely all have something in our past that could be brought up amongst the naysayers and detractors.

Squirly wrote:No need for this thread.

From what I can tell, the majority of people on this site are convinced that the only way to reach the level of conqueror is to cheat. Also, all those that have been conqueror are clearly mean and evil people.

why not just immediately ban players the very moment they reach #1 on the scoreboard?

That would solve things for everyone, right?


Hmm. Let's say for the sake of argument that I dunno.... Fruitcake become conqueror. That guy is clean as a whistle. There are non-dirty players out there but they just don't generally become conquerors because they have the insurmountable task of beating the scores of the cheap-o guys on an uneven playing field. That's the reality.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby eddie2 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:37 am

i think the user group for the conqueror should now look at the recent players who have been busted for underhand tactics and removed from the group.. on doing this is the statement about the group i think these players should be named and shamed..

glg site banned for ranching and collected title by ranching newer players 2 site...

kiron for the reason just busted...

blitzaholic my personal opinion would be not to remove him as his abuse was to hold the title but he got it fair and square.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:32 am

Tenebrus wrote:The verdict is in, and it's a one week ban and a bar from playing together. I guess that the mods will get a lot of flak for that ruling, as it won't satisfy either side completely, but IMO it's a good, fair ruling with a very complicated and unclear fact pattern. Shame to have another conqueror under a C&A cloud but going forward I think the decision was the right one.


I'm pretty much satisfied with the ruling, and I've been the most skeptical ITT (aside from K&X).

What remains is finding a better way to prosecute people. Hopefully, people like CoH won't have to spend half their day making their case---when some substitute for more easily identifying collusion becomes available.


And @ eddie, whatever, dude. Start a new thread about Blitzaholic.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby kentington on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:52 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Tenebrus wrote:The verdict is in, and it's a one week ban and a bar from playing together. I guess that the mods will get a lot of flak for that ruling, as it won't satisfy either side completely, but IMO it's a good, fair ruling with a very complicated and unclear fact pattern. Shame to have another conqueror under a C&A cloud but going forward I think the decision was the right one.


I'm pretty much satisfied with the ruling, and I've been the most skeptical ITT (aside from K&X).

What remains is finding a better way to prosecute people. Hopefully, people like CoH won't have to spend half their day making their case---when some substitute for more easily identifying collusion becomes available.


And @ eddie, whatever, dude. Start a new thread about Blitzaholic.


King Achilles and the C&A Team did a good job on this one. If anyone is upset about the results, then please think about it carefully because there is a lot more to it. It isn't the same as GLG or blitzaholic, and he is no longer Conqueror and the medal has been removed, according to some in the C&A thread. I support their decision and think it is justified.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:14 am

kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Tenebrus wrote:The verdict is in, and it's a one week ban and a bar from playing together. I guess that the mods will get a lot of flak for that ruling, as it won't satisfy either side completely, but IMO it's a good, fair ruling with a very complicated and unclear fact pattern. Shame to have another conqueror under a C&A cloud but going forward I think the decision was the right one.


I'm pretty much satisfied with the ruling, and I've been the most skeptical ITT (aside from K&X).

What remains is finding a better way to prosecute people. Hopefully, people like CoH won't have to spend half their day making their case---when some substitute for more easily identifying collusion becomes available.


And @ eddie, whatever, dude. Start a new thread about Blitzaholic.


King Achilles and the C&A Team did a good job on this one. If anyone is upset about the results, then please think about it carefully because there is a lot more to it. It isn't the same as GLG or blitzaholic, and he is no longer Conqueror and the medal has been removed, according to some in the C&A thread. I support their decision and think it is justified.


Unless they can provide a specific example of what was done wrong and why this penalty is associated with that injustice, then this is not a good decision. What they have done is caved to the mob mentality and added confusion to the overall mix without providing anything for rational beings to attach to. Now, I realize that technically humans aren't rational, but I would like to be able to program my spambot to be able to play this game without breaking the rules. How can I do that? They still haven't answered the question.

Squirly's suggestion is best.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby kentington on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:57 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Tenebrus wrote:The verdict is in, and it's a one week ban and a bar from playing together. I guess that the mods will get a lot of flak for that ruling, as it won't satisfy either side completely, but IMO it's a good, fair ruling with a very complicated and unclear fact pattern. Shame to have another conqueror under a C&A cloud but going forward I think the decision was the right one.


I'm pretty much satisfied with the ruling, and I've been the most skeptical ITT (aside from K&X).

What remains is finding a better way to prosecute people. Hopefully, people like CoH won't have to spend half their day making their case---when some substitute for more easily identifying collusion becomes available.


And @ eddie, whatever, dude. Start a new thread about Blitzaholic.


King Achilles and the C&A Team did a good job on this one. If anyone is upset about the results, then please think about it carefully because there is a lot more to it. It isn't the same as GLG or blitzaholic, and he is no longer Conqueror and the medal has been removed, according to some in the C&A thread. I support their decision and think it is justified.


Unless they can provide a specific example of what was done wrong and why this penalty is associated with that injustice, then this is not a good decision. What they have done is caved to the mob mentality and added confusion to the overall mix without providing anything for rational beings to attach to. Now, I realize that technically humans aren't rational, but I would like to be able to program my spambot to be able to play this game without breaking the rules. How can I do that? They still haven't answered the question.

Squirly's suggestion is best.


There were specific examples of secret diplomacy all through this thread and the C&A thread. I don't believe they caved to the mob. They were presented to the C&A team and the decision they made shows they feel it was sufficiently showing secret diplomacy.
Are you asking them to present the straw that broke the back or all of their discussions on the subject?
Basically, if you play fair people will respect you.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Mr Changsha on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:26 pm

One must wonder about the sequence of events around all this. If kiron and xiangwang had not so overtly cheated in those last games, and so kiron actually hit conqueror a month or so later, would the same storm have been created? Or do we as a community prefer to wait until a player reaches conqueror before we demand action and so the last few games made no difference either way? Many of us knew before all of this that their playing records were suspect, yet it seems that it was the final push for the title that caused our collective outrage and the determination in some to comb through their total record.

I wonder if without those last few games when kiron hit the conqueror title there would have been some general grumbling and the odd bit of unfocused sniping (which all conquerors pretty much face) but not the massive campaign of retribution some here have witnessed and others have happily enjoyed taking part in.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:01 am

Mr Changsha wrote:One must wonder about the sequence of events around all this. If kiron and xiangwang had not so overtly cheated in those last games, and so kiron actually hit conqueror a month or so later, would the same storm have been created? Or do we as a community prefer to wait until a player reaches conqueror before we demand action and so the last few games made no difference either way? Many of us knew before all of this that their playing records were suspect, yet it seems that it was the final push for the title that caused our collective outrage and the determination in some to comb through their total record.

I wonder if without those last few games when kiron hit the conqueror title there would have been some general grumbling and the odd bit of unfocused sniping (which all conquerors pretty much face) but not the massive campaign of retribution some here have witnessed and others have happily enjoyed taking part in.


An attempt was made to discredit their uncanny ability to reap points a long time ago (http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=103480&start=0&hilit=kiron) long before Kiron was nearing Conqueror, though after he had made a rapid rise up the scoreboard. Back then it was unknown that Kiron had so many housemates - and that xiangwang was one of them - so all the indicators led to him being a multi. Of this he was acquitted, yet the investigation should have delved deeper into the methods being adopted. I don't know of the procedures adopted by the C&A team, but if it's a simple IP check it's perhaps not enough. A thorough review of game logs has to be undertaken by someone who knows what they are looking at and what they are looking for. I did all that, back when that report was filed, and had enough evidence to prove collusion between the two accounts. I then proceeded to lose the entire lot as I had timed-out of CC when I hit 'Submit' and was so mad I let it be.
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Re: Mr C's Solution...

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:17 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:One must wonder about the sequence of events around all this. If kiron and xiangwang had not so overtly cheated in those last games, and so kiron actually hit conqueror a month or so later, would the same storm have been created? Or do we as a community prefer to wait until a player reaches conqueror before we demand action and so the last few games made no difference either way? Many of us knew before all of this that their playing records were suspect, yet it seems that it was the final push for the title that caused our collective outrage and the determination in some to comb through their total record.

I wonder if without those last few games when kiron hit the conqueror title there would have been some general grumbling and the odd bit of unfocused sniping (which all conquerors pretty much face) but not the massive campaign of retribution some here have witnessed and others have happily enjoyed taking part in.


An attempt was made to discredit their uncanny ability to reap points a long time ago (http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=103480&start=0&hilit=kiron) long before Kiron was nearing Conqueror, though after he had made a rapid rise up the scoreboard. Back then it was unknown that Kiron had so many housemates - and that xiangwang was one of them - so all the indicators led to him being a multi. Of this he was acquitted, yet the investigation should have delved deeper into the methods being adopted. I don't know of the procedures adopted by the C&A team, but if it's a simple IP check it's perhaps not enough. A thorough review of game logs has to be undertaken by someone who knows what they are looking at and what they are looking for. I did all that, back when that report was filed, and had enough evidence to prove collusion between the two accounts. I then proceeded to lose the entire lot as I had timed-out of CC when I hit 'Submit' and was so mad I let it be.


Over the years there have been countless cases of real-life friends engaging in secret diplomacy that always seem to get away with it, as the CC-rule has always seemed to be 'real-life friends can play in large public standard games and we just have to trust that they are playing fairly...'

So we have to presume innocence in these cases. Yet I have always been deeply suspicious of any players that do this, in fact I naturally presume guilt, for it has always seemed to me that it is fundamentally dishonourable to play games on this basis. Private games are a different thing as all the players will probably be aware of the various relationships involved, it is real-life friends playing in public games that in my view should have been made against the rules many, many years ago.

Furthermore, we have to consider if there is a repeated pattern. Playing the odd public game with one's real-life friends might be considered 'a bit dodgy and should probably be avoided (warning)', however numerous games - especially if unusually high win rates are achieved - should lead to an immediate block. I disagree with you in that we should need to comb through the logs, the evidence is all there in the win rates.

I would like to see a line or two added to the rules of the game along the lines of "Please avoid playing public standard games with your real-life friends, as such play is unfair to the other participants in the game". Now this is not a new idea for me, I have made this point on more than one occasion, but I feel now would be a good time to make it again.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:30 am

Yes, very good point
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:42 am

Mr Changsha wrote:One must wonder about the sequence of events around all this. If kiron and xiangwang had not so overtly cheated in those last games, and so kiron actually hit conqueror a month or so later, would the same storm have been created? Or do we as a community prefer to wait until a player reaches conqueror before we demand action and so the last few games made no difference either way? Many of us knew before all of this that their playing records were suspect, yet it seems that it was the final push for the title that caused our collective outrage and the determination in some to comb through their total record.

I wonder if without those last few games when kiron hit the conqueror title there would have been some general grumbling and the odd bit of unfocused sniping (which all conquerors pretty much face) but not the massive campaign of retribution some here have witnessed and others have happily enjoyed taking part in.

It is unfortunate that it takes someone becoming conqueror for people to object to their unfair playing habits. In general I feel that most objections to less than honorable gaming practices on here are scoffed at by most as "over reactive". I've always been perplexed by this apathetic and lenient response to deliberately dishonest play. The only explanations I have ever been able to imagine are either laziness or acceptance of dishonest play because one partakes in dishonest play him/herself. The latter explanation does stand to reason as It's been made known that there is a whole group of players who have been involved in these sort of schemes.
If you yourself are an honest player and at all competitive then the most natural response to dishonest play is to be outraged and address the issue by all means possible.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:48 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Unless they can provide a specific example of what was done wrong and why this penalty is associated with that injustice, then this is not a good decision. What they have done is caved to the mob mentality and added confusion to the overall mix without providing anything for rational beings to attach to. Now, I realize that technically humans aren't rational, but I would like to be able to program my spambot to be able to play this game without breaking the rules. How can I do that? They still haven't answered the question.

Squirly's suggestion is best.


Given CoH's C&A case and the many other points made by others ITT, I can't really agree with you.

The right decision was carried out,
although there were tinges of a mob mentality, reasonable posters were heard and made great points,
and lol @ squirly's suggestion.

Therefore, hopefully your faith in humanity has been restored.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:17 pm

who is CoH?
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Highest position #5 (18 Nov 2010) General 4,380pts (11 Dec 2010)
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby ZeekLTK on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:49 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
Kiron wrote: if the move was illegal, then a warning should be sent out since past precedence shows the move was legal by lack of punishment.


Unfortunately, the scientific method doesn't apply to rules. I can drive down a highway at 50 over 10 times and not get busted, but you might drive down once and get busted.

However, I don't think it is illegal because a)stalemate games have to end with suicide or with players deadbeating; so it isn't illegal in all cases b) the agreement terms were clearly laid out where everyone could see them.


This isn't the case though, the game was not a stalemate. Only one player was eliminated (the turn before it ended), it was still anyone's game for the most part.

Also, this is different than normal alliances because when you make an alliance with a player, you are still trying to win the game. If you see they are about to win by taking some kind of victory condition then you obviously break the truce to stop them. In this case, red actively helped orange get the victory condition and then did nothing, allowing orange to win. This is clearly game throwing and if this isn't against the rules then I don't know what would be against the rules.

The most important rule to make any game legit is that all players have to play to win. If someone is not playing to win themselves, but is instead playing to let someone else win, it ruins the whole game for everyone else.

Tiebreaker games are stupid too. If you are going to play out another game to it's completion, then why not just finish the one you are in? Those seem to be in violation of the rules as well, because players agree to throw one game based on the results of another, but that shouldn't be allowed either. The rule should be: Play to win the game you are in, with no "outside influence". Period.


Glad that this was at least recognized as a violation and hope that decisions prevents this from happening in the future.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby AslanTheKing on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:48 pm

I got great news, placed an add that i am looking for housemates,
soon i will have 10 new housemates, and they are all interested in playing in CC
( of course only freemium)
they all will use my homecomputer - so the IP numbers will be identical,
but i learned from this forum that this is ok with CC,
i am looking forward to show them a couple of tricks,
and i am also planing to write a new strategyguide,

i will call it, how to become a conquerer in 2 years playing with housemates and friends
what do you think, should i start with doodle or right away with something like waterloo?
I used to roll the daizz
Feel the fear in my enemy´s eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing:

Long live the Army Of Kings !


AOK

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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby AslanTheKing on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:53 pm

I used to roll the daizz
Feel the fear in my enemy´s eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing:

Long live the Army Of Kings !


AOK

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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:52 pm

AslanTheKing wrote:I got great news, placed an add that i am looking for housemates,
soon i will have 10 new housemates, and they are all interested in playing in CC
( of course only freemium)
they all will use my homecomputer - so the IP numbers will be identical,
but i learned from this forum that this is ok with CC,
i am looking forward to show them a couple of tricks,
and i am also planing to write a new strategyguide,

i will call it, how to become a conquerer in 2 years playing with housemates and friends
what do you think, should i start with doodle or right away with something like waterloo?


As ridiculous as this sounds, it's not that much of a stretch.
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Re: Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

Postby AslanTheKing on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:59 pm

are you still looking for evidence?
let me know when u found something

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I used to roll the daizz
Feel the fear in my enemy´s eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing:

Long live the Army Of Kings !


AOK

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