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Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby iAmCaffeine on Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:50 am

agree w/ loutil. stop being snowflakes
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:01 am

Escape from Auschwitz map NOW.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:38 am

mrswdk wrote:Escape from Auschwitz map NOW.

For clarity...
A map reflecting colonial Jamaica, depicting slavery, offends you. So, creating a map depicting the holocaust will somehow make it better for you? Will you be less offended by depictions of slavery if we show other historical atrocities? Sounds like virtue signaling to me...
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:17 pm

loutil wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Escape from Auschwitz map NOW.


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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:19 pm

Well said.

loutil wrote:Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it. The slave trade is part of the history of colonial Jamaica. The Royal Africa Company used Jamaica as its primary market and it became the center of the West Indies slave trade. History is a historical record. I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.
We can agree slavery is horrid and does not belong anywhere in a civilized society. But, we get to that point because our history has taught us that.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby ConfederateSS on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:42 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.

It's called intellectual property rights. It's one of the basic underpinnings of civilization.

=D> =D> =D>
Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.

It's called intellectual property rights. It's one of the basic underpinnings of civilization.


Oh I see. CC has been short-sighted enough to allow its entire map database to be legally owned by a disparate collection of individuals without any guarantee that those individuals would remain actively engaged in maintaining their sections of that database? Somehow I am not surprised.

Actually, it's not LEGAL ownership. Legal ownership resides with CC. It's MORAL ownership. CC grants the creators of an artistic work the sole discretion as to whether that work can be modified or not. CC is the rarest of all beasts nowadays, an entity that respects the rights of its contributors without needing to be bludgeoned with legal injunctions.
=D> =D> =D>
jusplay4fun wrote:Well said.

loutil wrote:Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it. The slave trade is part of the history of colonial Jamaica. The Royal Africa Company used Jamaica as its primary market and it became the center of the West Indies slave trade. History is a historical record. I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.
We can agree slavery is horrid and does not belong anywhere in a civilized society. But, we get to that point because our history has taught us that.

-----------As for badrandall...When are you going to respond?...since the OP...in another 14 years :roll:
badrandall wrote:Hi Conquer Club Community,

I'd like to propose that the Jamaica Board be changed. I think it is distasteful that the Board has players enslave people. It's ugly and disrespectful of the broader Conquer Club Community.

Thoughts?

BadRandall

--------------So you have been here in C.C.Land since 2006...But all of a sudden in 2020...find the map ugly and disrespectful... :roll: please spare us your thoughts...Get off the "commie pinko"LEFT mumbo jumbo band wagon's ATTACK ON All HISTORY.of today's liberal society... :roll: O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)....
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Kotaro on Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:37 am

So if people use Swastikas on their maps, or put an image of Totenkopf as their avatars, this should be scrubbed from the site and the users in question should be banned. But if someone depicts slavery in their map, this is just history and we should get over it?

Are you actually trying to protect history, or are you simply trying to have people get over it because it's part of your nationality's history? Is slavery something that will be forgotten by you users if we wipe it off the Jamacian map, or is it simply a reminder that people out there consider themselves superior enough to own others?

loutil wrote:Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it.


By your own admission, nothing negative will come from changing the map. Just because 'history is history,' doesn't mean we display it for the whole world to see. Just as swastikas were considered unacceptable on maps and wiped from them.

Dukasaur wrote:Actually, it's not LEGAL ownership. Legal ownership resides with CC. It's MORAL ownership. CC grants the creators of an artistic work the sole discretion as to whether that work can be modified or not. CC is the rarest of all beasts nowadays, an entity that respects the rights of its contributors without needing to be bludgeoned with legal injunctions.


It's a bit weird that CC would take the stance that Swastikas aren't allowed to be depicted as a representation of their site, but slavery is. Since these maps are turned into games and then used in the competition of the website, this map is directly tied to CC, but saying that the rights of the contributors overrules the rights of its members to not be offended by their content? Interesting choice, but seeing as you allow people to verbally attack others inside the game itself, I suppose it's not surprising.

ConfederateSS wrote:--------------So you have been here in C.C.Land since 2006...But all of a sudden in 2020...find the map ugly and disrespectful... :roll: please spare us your thoughts...Get off the "commie pinko"LEFT mumbo jumbo band wagon's ATTACK ON All HISTORY.of today's liberal society... :roll: O:) ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)... O:)....


Asking people to not display images of slavery, an outdated social system that caused the pain and suffering of countless people and has had the longstanding effect of keeping many in poverty, is an attack on all history? The South lost the war, ConfederateSS, move on from your misguided ideals.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Extreme Ways on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:57 am

Kotaro wrote:So if people use Swastikas on their maps, or put an image of Totenkopf as their avatars, this should be scrubbed from the site and the users in question should be banned. But if someone depicts slavery in their map, this is just history and we should get over it?

Are you actually trying to protect history, or are you simply trying to have people get over it because it's part of your nationality's history? Is slavery something that will be forgotten by you users if we wipe it off the Jamacian map, or is it simply a reminder that people out there consider themselves superior enough to own others?

I personally dont mind the use of swastikas in nazi-Germany related maps. I mind them even less when we're using swastikas in the context of hinduism.

But furthermore, without taking a strong stance here I really don't think you can compare the usage of 'offensive' symbols in avatars to the depiction of slavery on a map.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:19 am

Extreme Ways wrote:I mind them even less when we're using swastikas in the context of hinduism.


lol, surely that's 'I don't mind them at all'? They are still actively and primarily used as a religious symbol all over Asia.

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They're not specific to Hinduism btw, they are also present in Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Extreme Ways on Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:24 am

mrswdk wrote:
Extreme Ways wrote:I mind them even less when we're using swastikas in the context of hinduism.


lol, surely that's 'I don't mind them at all'? They are still actively and primarily used as a religious symbol all over Asia.

Image

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They're not specific to Hinduism btw, they are also present in Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism.

I've been to India (north, west and south - not east though) more than enough, all I'm saying is that the context is important.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:39 am

Sounds like we are all agreed to rename the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Jamaica'.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:38 am

Kotaro wrote:



overrules the rights of its members to not be offended by their content?not surprising. .


This is the heart of the problem/issue. Please show me where anyone has a right to not be offended? Being offended is a choice. People choose to be offended by all types of things and some choose to be offended as it allows them to virtue signal the world or give them a sense of power. As anyone can choose to be offended by anything, I am not interested in changing things just because someone chose to be offended.
What if I said that I am offended by people who take offense at historical realities? Should your speech be silenced?
Note: I choose to not let others offend me, ever. Why? Because I am not willing to give others power over me.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:48 am

How brave, a white guy living in the US is strong enough to choose not to be upset by all the discrimination he experiences in his day-to-day life.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:51 am

mrswdk wrote:How brave, a white guy living in the US is strong enough to choose not to be upset by all the discrimination he experiences in his day-to-day life.

LOL...that is a big leap from being offended by iconography to actual discrimination in life.
Further, the color of my skin is not relevant to a discussion about how being offended is a choice. It is just an ad hominem attack showing you have run out of intelligent thought...
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Shannon Apple on Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:40 pm

loutil wrote:Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it. The slave trade is part of the history of colonial Jamaica. The Royal Africa Company used Jamaica as its primary market and it became the center of the West Indies slave trade. History is a historical record. I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.
We can agree slavery is horrid and does not belong anywhere in a civilized society. But, we get to that point because our history has taught us that.

I agree, to be honest.

Countries who did bad things to others try to gloss over their history and have celebrations instead painting those atrocities committed as something good. Is it not good that a map like this one is opening a conversation. Talking about it is education. Education helps us understand the past and strive not to repeat it. Glossing things over just dooms future generations into making similar mistakes.

Maybe there should be some explanation accompanying a historical map, so that people understand that it's not glamourising, but instead there as a true depiction of what life was like in the era.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:03 pm

loutil wrote:
mrswdk wrote:How brave, a white guy living in the US is strong enough to choose not to be upset by all the discrimination he experiences in his day-to-day life.

LOL...that is a big leap from being offended by iconography to actual discrimination in life.


You're the one who made the leap, banging on about how you choose to never get offended by anything. Which in the context of this thread is a very easy choice to make when you've never had to deal with a constant background noise of people making offensive remarks about you.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Extreme Ways on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:08 pm

mrswdk wrote:Sounds like we are all agreed to rename the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Jamaica'.

Honestly, would be a good change. It's not out of place in maps like 1914 Europe, Napo Europe, FNA, 1883 Transsib etc. I dont think such a change is required but if the map were to be designed now I'd certainly propose the change.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:58 pm

Extreme Ways wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Sounds like we are all agreed to rename the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Jamaica'.

Honestly, would be a good change. It's not out of place in maps like 1914 Europe, Napo Europe, FNA, 1883 Transsib etc. I dont think such a change is required but if the map were to be designed now I'd certainly propose the change.

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that assessment.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:49 am

This seems to be a good idea.

Now mrswdk can work on and produce a new Jamaica map. mrswdk can then claim intellectual property ownership of it.

mrswdk wrote:Sounds like we are all agreed to rename the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Jamaica'.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:10 pm

mrswdk wrote:
loutil wrote:
mrswdk wrote:How brave, a white guy living in the US is strong enough to choose not to be upset by all the discrimination he experiences in his day-to-day life.

LOL...that is a big leap from being offended by iconography to actual discrimination in life.


You're the one who made the leap, banging on about how you choose to never get offended by anything. Which in the context of this thread is a very easy choice to make when you've never had to deal with a constant background noise of people making offensive remarks about you.

Nice intellectually dishonest response. I made no leap and I was not "banging on" about anything. I did, in fact, respond directly to a comment about the rights of members to not be offended by content. I also made a single statement that I choose to not let others offend me.
You seem to be one of those people who like to play the victim card and find reasons to be offended by innocuous or otherwise irrelevant stuff. As you keep referring to the color of my skin or my personal experiences, you reinforce the basic notion that you are not interested in actually debating facts...
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Compalomp on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:46 pm

I don't think changing the name is quite enough.

Yeah, board games like RISK are abstracted war. The abstraction is done for a purpose. Charred flesh and raped children are common parts of war. They're even parts of war that ought to be emphasized in the context of a somber history book. But you don't depict little cartoons of them on the map, because it would be upsetting and cruel. Same with a cartoon of a naked, bent-over black body representing a resource boost.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby antipajaro on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:38 pm

I agree with Compalomp and others. Of course I'm not surprised to see the free speech brigade here claiming that war is hell, we're all pansies, being offended is a choice, etc. But one of those undeniable facts (not feelings!) of history is that the victors write it, and the Jamaica map is an example of what happens when people who have never lived with slavery's legacy decide how it can be depicted. Does anyone seriously think a descendant of slaves designed it? What would it look like it they had?
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:40 am

I'd say this thread needs a poll but I think that ship has sailed.

But it seems pretty obvious by this point that a majority of people in this thread are saying the Jamaica map in its current form is inappropriate and ought to change, with a little bit of routine background noise from the whitesplainers.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:01 am

mrswdk wrote:
But it seems pretty obvious by this point that a majority of people in this thread are saying the Jamaica map in its current form is inappropriate and ought to change, minus a bit of a chorus from the usual whitesplainers.

LOL at your continued intellectual dishonesty.
When you say the "majority of people in this thread" you really mean the minority of people in this thread. By my count there are 6 people in support and 8 opposed and 1 person open to a minor change. I see that you edited your first version calling us a minority of white people from white dominated cultures to "whitesplainers". You love to make personal attacks as you have no real substance to your opinions...
Maybe I should lower myself to your level and accuse you of blacksplaining ;) .
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Kotaro on Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:35 pm

loutil wrote:LOL at your continued intellectual dishonesty.
When you say the "majority of people in this thread" you really mean the minority of people in this thread. By my count there are 6 people in support and 8 opposed and 1 person open to a minor change. I see that you edited your first version calling us a minority of white people from white dominated cultures to "whitesplainers". You love to make personal attacks as you have no real substance to your opinions...
Maybe I should lower myself to your level and accuse you of blacksplaining ;) .


Wow, I rarely find someone this devout in his defense of a system that has kept many, many people of color in poverty, unless I'm dealing with a member of the KKK. And rarely do I see them so obviously racist, usually they've got the common sense to at least pretend that they're living in a free country, not a white country that barely tolerates anything different.

And for someone who's added nothing of substance to this thread, you sure are attacking a lot of others. But nobody's really surprised when people who ask you not to display racist symbols, and suddenly history is 'under attack,' because we all know not depicting slavery on a CC map is going to thrash history somehow magically.
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