Conquer Club

I want to note before i start, that in no way is this to bash anyone or to condemn any mods for their decisions.

Farming, the question i have as does many others i would assume. Is what justifies farming and how do we clarify?
After looking through the rules, I only found it mentioned as a major infraction. There have been so many cases
lately it seems. I feel like a better description is needed. Is it just for high ranks against ?'s, but what justifies
high rank. Where do we draw the line? The mods have there reasoning, whether for good or bad it's there decision.
But how do we describe farming really? There are so many variations I wouldn't know where to count. Should it be based
on map or rank or both? This is a very heated subject and I believe needs to be discussed a lot more and in better
detail. There is to much room for personal interpretation that it cause's discord amongst mods, ranks, enemies and
even friends. Do we need a Clear cut description in the rules or is how it work's now satisfactory? I would like to make
this simpler for myself as well as others to understand this rule. Please mods, explain your OWN description of farming
to help me(and others) understand. And if anyone would like to discuss there OWN interpretation of the rule.

And as a suggestion from myself, i would like to see a better description in the rule's section.
Thanks to all who comment and please keep this civilized it's a discussion not a boxing ring!

i agree a better definition would be nice, perhaps this topic will clear things up.

there are many different forms. Certain difficult maps, certain settings, a higher rank sending messages to low ranks to play them on a difficult map, etc.

but 1 form i disagree with, is when a player starts a multiplayer game and noobs join his game uninvited, the original player who started the game has no control over who joins his game, if the mods wish to call this farming, then on the flipside the mods need to create the ability to start a game and as an option the player starting the game can exclude players below a chosen rank.

Risky_Stud wrote:I want to note before i start, that in no way is this to bash anyone or to condemn any mods for their decisions.

Farming, the question i have as does many others i would assume. Is what justifies farming and how do we clarify?
After looking through the rules, I only found it mentioned as a major infraction. There have been so many cases
lately it seems. I feel like a better description is needed. Is it just for high ranks against ?'s, but what justifies
high rank. Where do we draw the line? The mods have there reasoning, whether for good or bad it's there decision.
But how do we describe farming really? There are so many variations I wouldn't know where to count. Should it be based
on map or rank or both? This is a very heated subject and I believe needs to be discussed a lot more and in better
detail. There is to much room for personal interpretation that it cause's discord amongst mods, ranks, enemies and
even friends. Do we need a Clear cut description in the rules or is how it work's now satisfactory? I would like to make
this simpler for myself as well as others to understand this rule. Please mods, explain your OWN description of farming
to help me(and others) understand. And if anyone would like to discuss there OWN interpretation of the rule.

And as a suggestion from myself, i would like to see a better description in the rule's section.
Thanks to all who comment and please keep this civilized it's a discussion not a boxing ring!

For the most part, the farming that is against the rules, Is the farming of new recruits only. No other farming is really regulated....not to say that its impossible someone develops a system so bad that it gets addressed.

For now, Illegal farming, is any behavior which specifically targets NEW RECRUITS. It can be done by either joining games...which is more obvious...but also by setting up many games that attract many NEW RECRUITS, really, for whatever reason.

The setting up games one is always a little harder to define, but the results typically speak for themselves....if you end up with many NEW RECRUITS...and keep setting up those settings....its obvious that is the goal, and it is usually considered farming.

So far, no targeting of non NEW RECRUITS is covered by any rule, except the gross abuse of game rule...which has not been used in farming cases.

The decision to warn or punish/not warn or punish is done somewhat individually, but often is decided by the volume of the NEW RECRUIT farming that occurred.

Anyone overly experienced joining games against NEW RECRUITS is almost always warned, as its typically blatently obvious.

The goal of anti-farming rules are:
1. Protect NEW RECRUITS from being smashed on one of their first 5 games.

2. Not inflate the scoreboard as much.

3. Not allow players to take advantage of the higher rate of deadbeating that happens with NEW RECRUITS.

4. Not discourage players on their first few games, while they may be just figuring out the basics of the site, let alone the specifics of strategy and how to play.

5. Generate a positive atmosphere with all players, because they all agree that targeting the new players is just wrong.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=100115&start=35

StephenB wrote:In my opinion (after years of playing online games on other sites)...

Point-farming is when you gain cheap points however way possible.

Noob-farming is when you purposely play against players worse than yourself in order to pick up easy wins.

Newb-farming is when you purposely play against new players, hoping to beat them because of their lack of experience.


According to the rules, what I consider 'Newb-farming' is the only type of farming that is not allowed. The other types are still farming, just not against the rules.

I would also like to add that I think if one type of farming isn't allowed, none of them should be. Now this does not mean all players who look after their score or create public games (which obviously, often fill with low ranks) should be banned, certainly not. People who target bad players (see the report about David Hoekstra for a perfect example) should be however (after a warning, of course).

StephenB wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=100115&start=35

StephenB wrote:In my opinion (after years of playing online games on other sites)...

Point-farming is when you gain cheap points however way possible.

Noob-farming is when you purposely play against players worse than yourself in order to pick up easy wins.

Newb-farming is when you purposely play against new players, hoping to beat them because of their lack of experience.


According to the rules, what I consider 'Newb-farming' is the only type of farming that is not allowed. The other types are still farming, just not against the rules.

I would also like to add that I think if one type of farming isn't allowed, none of them should be. Now this does not mean all players who look after their score or create public games (which obviously, often fill with low ranks) should be banned, certainly not. People who target bad players (see the report about David Hoekstra for a perfect example) should be however (after a warning, of course).

Well, that would just limit peoples ability to play far too much. Myself I think a grace period of 10 or 20 games might be better...but one can never stop people from playing other people because of score, or perceived ability, because as you say "people who target bad players" are guilty of farming...you completely ignore that "bad" is highly subjective, and not quantifiable in any useful way, and based on a number of factors that would simply be silly to try to tackle. Its also completely relative to the other players, and ability is simply impossible to really gauge, and more importantly...its insane to try. For now, Its nice and clear: dont target NEW RECRUITS in any way, and you are fine. But once you start killing many of them, you will be stopped.

AAFitz wrote:

StephenB wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=100115&start=35

StephenB wrote:In my opinion (after years of playing online games on other sites)...

Point-farming is when you gain cheap points however way possible.

Noob-farming is when you purposely play against players worse than yourself in order to pick up easy wins.

Newb-farming is when you purposely play against new players, hoping to beat them because of their lack of experience.


According to the rules, what I consider 'Newb-farming' is the only type of farming that is not allowed. The other types are still farming, just not against the rules.

I would also like to add that I think if one type of farming isn't allowed, none of them should be. Now this does not mean all players who look after their score or create public games (which obviously, often fill with low ranks) should be banned, certainly not. People who target bad players (see the report about David Hoekstra for a perfect example) should be however (after a warning, of course).

Well, that would just limit peoples ability to play far too much. Myself I think a grace period of 10 or 20 games might be better...but one can never stop people from playing other people because of score, or perceived ability, because as you say "people who target bad players" are guilty of farming...you completely ignore that "bad" is highly subjective, and not quantifiable in any useful way, and based on a number of factors that would simply be silly to try to tackle. Its also completely relative to the other players, and ability is simply impossible to really gauge, and more importantly...its insane to try. For now, Its nice and clear: dont target NEW RECRUITS in any way, and you are fine. But once you start killing many of them, you will be stopped.

It would not limit anyone's ability to play except the farmers'. I'm not suggesting that CC should be strict in enforcing the farming rule. However, if a player plays 50 games and 48 of them have nothing but privates and lower in, to me that is an obvious abuse because said player is targetting lower ranks and picking up easy points and wins.

If you had looked into the David Hoekstra case (though he is probably not the only one doing this), you would see what I mean by 'targetting bad players'. He looks for low ranks that are yet to complete a game on one of CC's complicated maps, then invites them to a game on that map. He does this because he hopes they will not have a clue what they are doing and will play badly.

StephenB wrote:It would not limit anyone's ability to play except the farmers'. I'm not suggesting that CC should be strict in enforcing the farming rule. However, if a player plays 50 games and 48 of them have nothing but privates and lower in, to me that is an obvious abuse because said player is targetting lower ranks and picking up easy points and wins.

If you had looked into the David Hoekstra case (though he is probably not the only one doing this), you would see what I mean by 'targetting bad players'. He looks for low ranks that are yet to complete a game on one of CC's complicated maps, then invites them to a game on that map. He does this because he hopes they will not have a clue what they are doing and will play badly.

Define playing badly.
Define who can play who and who[/i] cant play who on what map.
Whats a low rank?
Whats easy points?
What rank can play what rank and have it be a game?
At what rank does someone not have a clue?

Every single phase you use is completely subjective and therefore impossible to define or regulate.

The score itself is completely subjective, and therefore cannot be solely used for definitions.
Even number of games played is somewhat subjective, because players join with an inherently different playing ability. Some are pros on game 1, and some are not pros after game 1000.

It will never be against the rules to play someone solely based on score. Experience will always have to be accounted for, and at this time, CC does not want to discriminate against any rank, playing any rank alone.

Read through my post again. Maybe a bit slower this time. If you are of average or above average intelligence, you will be able to answer all of the questions you asked.

How about this. Barring tournament's nobody cpl or lower should ever play anyone major or higher.
That's not saying they can never play an officer or competitive. Just let them get some good experience
first. I mean by the time your 1200 pts(cpl First class) you have some good idea of how things work here.
And at that point you would be considered exempt from being farmed. With that also if the high rank's
want to farm they would have to enter a tournament and that would force them to play anyone, which
most farmers hate.

StephenB wrote:Read through my post again. Maybe a bit slower this time. If you are of average or above average intelligence, you will be able to answer all of the questions you asked.

No, the questions are unanswerable, and you dont even need to be of average intelligence to know that. But by all means, answer them correctly and meaningfully and prove me wrong. Your posts only uses the terms, it doesn't once define them, and is so vague as to be utterly useless to the discussion, without actual definitions. But again, show me where thats incorrect.

AAFitz wrote:For now, Illegal farming, is any behavior which specifically targets NEW RECRUITS. It can be done by either joining games...which is more obvious...but also by setting up many games that attract many NEW RECRUITS, really, for whatever reason.

The setting up games one is always a little harder to define, but the results typically speak for themselves....if you end up with many NEW RECRUITS...and keep setting up those settings....its obvious that is the goal, and it is usually considered farming.

That right there is what I have a problem with.

I like specific maps, specific settings, and with a specific amount of people. Yeah, I go outside those bounds once in a while when I'm feeling froggy and try out a new map or something, but the majority of "my" games are always set up with what "I" like. It just so happens that noobs generally sign on to the majority of those games (which I generally don't like given their propensity for deadbeating).

So what happens when some mod decides to arbitrarily label me as a farmer?

Perhaps developers should have been working on allowing game-starters to discriminate against noobs joining our games instead of that stat counter.

Just set up a larger number of games, say 50-75, before they are opened to the public. After that many, unless you are playing on the same map, you get a variety of games. Then, regardless of their rank of skill, let them go to the wolves. If after 50 games, you can't figure out when a highre rank is trying to farm points off you, you deserve to lose them.

I would also like to clarify that I do not believe the player should stay as a new recruit for that whole time. But just set a limit to what rank they can play against until they complete x games, something around 50ish.

Risky_Stud wrote:How about this. Barring tournament's nobody cpl or lower should ever play anyone major or higher.
That's not saying they can never play an officer or competitive. Just let them get some good experience
first. I mean by the time your 1200 pts(cpl First class) you have some good idea of how things work here.
And at that point you would be considered exempt from being farmed. With that also if the high rank's
want to farm they would have to enter a tournament and that would force them to play anyone, which
most farmers hate.

Stephen brought up my C&A against a player as evidence; it's actually good evidence to answer the topic. The answer came back that what that player, David Hoekstra, was doing may be all sorts of undesired things, using tactics that were not intended (it was compared to the now-closed freestyle double-turn loophole) but those tactics are not farming, and are not "gross abuse of the game." The mod who answered suggested that someone post a Suggestion in the S&B thread if they want the definition of farming and gross abuse redefined to include players who consistently target people who have completed at least 6 games (no longer a ?) whom they know have no experience on a map.

If one of you chooses to post that suggestion the mods invited, then you may want to add that any Team games, where at least one member of the team is a "qualified" rank, should also be allowed.

For now, farming is apparently limited to ? only. Gross abuse can be defined, based on previously-judged cases. Gross abuse consists of collaborating to throw points, with or without a "multi". "What is collaborating to throw points?" Fitz is likely to ask... it's when you set up with another player that one or the other of you help ensure that one of you wins a multiplayer game, or a team game where one of the players is on the opposing team. There's another case now where someone has been accused of having his son throw him points by joining multiplayer games and throwing the game his way, or letting the father beat him in 1v1 games. In this case, it was ruled bannable before, but the sanction was lifted, now they're accused of it again. This is not a case of accusation of "multi" but apparently they're accused of using the same tactics as if the son were a multi.

Hope this helps.

Are there REALLY this many morons on one site? FARMING: is ONLY the targeting of "? New Recruits" -- those with less than 5 completed games. Anybody that thinks it is something else is a SLOOOOW Learner.

ANYTHING else or close is NOT farming, no different than going 54 in a 55 MPH speed zone is "speeding", no more than drinking when you turn 21 is wrong when the drinking age is 21, no more than being just under the legal limit for drinking and driving IS UNDER THE LIMIT. You can call people that do what is legal and you don't like whatever you want, but what I do is NOT farming and not illegal at CC. But harassing people doing legal things is self-righteus and fascist.

A lot of people ask for games and I give them one. Why don't more people give them games, why don't YOU? Should CC make NOT accepting an invitation, etc. illegal? The answer to your problem is to change the way people are ranked: not by points, but more like a combination of Points x Points/game x Average-rank. That would settle things -- easily.

(avg rank OF OPPONENTS)

sweet

[quote="David Hoekstra"]Are there REALLY this many morons on one site? FARMING: is ONLY the targeting of "? New Recruits" -- those with less than 5 completed games. Anybody that thinks it is something else is a SLOOOOW Learner.

ANYTHING else or close is NOT farming, no different than going 54 in a 55 MPH speed zone is "speeding", no more than drinking when you turn 21 is wrong when the drinking age is 21, no more than being just under the legal limit for drinking and driving IS UNDER THE LIMIT. You can call people that do what is legal and you don't like whatever you want, but what I do is NOT farming and not illegal at CC.

As for your first comment - Well you should know since 'it takes one to know one'

However, what you do IS, amongst other things, farming - but currently, it is only 'Farming New Recruits' which is against the rules.

Therefore your 'Farming of low ranks', and 'Farming of not quite a new recruit because they've played 6 games after joining the site a few HOURS earlier' is, under the current rules still legal.

Also, I think it is unfortunate for this site to have another potential conqueror, achieve the position using gameplay described by a senior moderator as:

'quote king achilles'

'What he may be guilty of is poor play, shady act, fishy, malicious play, etc.'

Interesting that a moderator considers farming of low ranks to be viewed like that and yet is it still not covered in the rules.

What an impressive description of your gamesmanship - one to be really proud of!

NickPapagiorgio wrote:

AAFitz wrote:For now, Illegal farming, is any behavior which specifically targets NEW RECRUITS. It can be done by either joining games...which is more obvious...but also by setting up many games that attract many NEW RECRUITS, really, for whatever reason.

The setting up games one is always a little harder to define, but the results typically speak for themselves....if you end up with many NEW RECRUITS...and keep setting up those settings....its obvious that is the goal, and it is usually considered farming.

That right there is what I have a problem with.

I like specific maps, specific settings, and with a specific amount of people. Yeah, I go outside those bounds once in a while when I'm feeling froggy and try out a new map or something, but the majority of "my" games are always set up with what "I" like. It just so happens that noobs generally sign on to the majority of those games (which I generally don't like given their propensity for deadbeating).

So what happens when some mod decides to arbitrarily label me as a farmer?

Perhaps developers should have been working on allowing game-starters to discriminate against noobs joining our games instead of that stat counter.

Dude, if you don't like new recruits filling up your games (like you say)- then just drop them and let them fight it out amongst themselves.
However, in looking at some of your recent games ... I think you like the 5 - 15 points per that these so-called deadbeats provide more than you dislike their dead-beating.

You're playing enough good games anyway so why not pad the score a little bit, eh?
It's not farming- more like fishing really. Besides you're not really trying to catch noobs perse ...

Face it, colonel; you are a farmer. You may as well admit it. It's the first step to recovery.

Perhaps developers should have been working on allowing game-starters to discriminate against noobs joining games instead of that stat counter?
They have. Perhaps as a game starter or participant you could try and learn to use the 'drop game' option the "developers" worked on. It allows anyone (even farmers like you) to drop out of any non-filled game one may think has too many noobs in it.

Oh, I bet you hate that stat counter, eh?