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codeblue1018 wrote:Josko, I understand you're busy but it is irresponsible to "briefly" read over this thread and make the determination you made without fully reading every post in its entirety. Secondly, you are blaming other players for ending early to give them the opportunity to make this deal?
" because others made strategic mistake and ended their turn early. They are guilty to even allow them to come in position for giving this offer".
Am I reading this correctly? Let me get this straight, so other players join a game perhaps not knowing the map or the freestyle strategy well and they are in some ways at fault? If I read your statement wrong I apologize, so feel free to elaborate. These two are shady and if you cant see that mate, I find that funny. Each time they speak on their behalf, more shady things evolve; the c/a thread puts that into perspective and this game you refer to is no isolated incident.
Gabriel13 wrote:Guys.. Think about it this way.. If this was an 8 player game with a bunch of low-ranked players, it either would've never been reported, or everybody would've laughed at the person who did report it. The only reason everybody is complaining is because he did it "to become conqueror", which he didn't really do, because he had almost 200 wins under his belt. He did it in ONE game, because it has happened to him before, so I don't really see a problem. Just think if some cook had posted this about another cook. Would you really care?
Gabriel13 wrote:Guys.. Think about it this way.. If this was an 8 player game with a bunch of low-ranked players, it either would've never been reported, or everybody would've laughed at the person who did report it. The only reason everybody is complaining is because he did it "to become conqueror", which he didn't really do, because he had almost 200 wins under his belt. He did it in ONE game, because it has happened to him before, so I don't really see a problem. Just think if some cook had posted this about another cook. Would you really care?
donelladan wrote:Otherwise, at the point of the game, if those 2 players had not been friend, even housemate, they would never have made the deal.
codeblue1018 wrote:Am I reading this correctly? Let me get this straight, so other players join a game perhaps not knowing the map or the freestyle strategy well and they are in some ways at fault?
I feel that a stripping of the conqueror medal would be appropriate considering the factors which led to it's acquisition.
Funkyterrance wrote:If you look at this from a non-biased, common sense standpoint and just take a minute to digest it, it's obviously cheating and a direct manipulation/abuse of the point system as it is intended.
If I was going to respect Kiron as conqueror, I wont now and I never will. Nor will I respect the rank of any other players who use or have used this "method". As far as I'm concerned this issue warrants a complete disaccreditation of all those involved. I realize that a lot of players still respect the offending parties in situations like this and like to give the benefit of the doubt in respect to their honorable natures in general but I am a member of the group that raises doubt where doubt is due.
I feel that a stripping of the conqueror medal would be appropriate considering the factors which led to it's acquisition.
codeblue1018 wrote:I disagree with a ban; I do think a block is in order between them to prevent this from occurring again. I'm not familiar with the events of Kiron and Drakeavril, but if it was similar in action , Kiron should be dealt with accordingly.
Kaskavel wrote:This is a complex case. Instead of offering an answer to the accusations, I will emphasize to the roots of the problem
1. Freestyle setting combined with objectives. This setting by itself creates problems. I can hardly imagine playing 10 games in this setting with 7 of my friends and not us ending up angry with each other. Suspicions raise all the time, the boundaries between cheating and unfair become grey and people already friends to each other obtain superior winning chances without having to cheat, just by trusting each other
2. Friends playing together in non escalating games. I solved those problems a long time ago, by almost never joining non-escalating games with my friends. If I was playing with mc or sirJohn 8 player flat rate games, I would now have the same problems. I made a decision and it works just fine. You can have your fun with friends in escalating games or assasin games, but not in diplomacy based games
3. The real issue in the presented case is not if the agreement is legal. It is whether those two playes are intentionaly or unintentionaly (and this makes the case even more complex) cheating by playing together in this game from the first place. It is quite obvious that this cannot be answered or proven, no matter how many pages are written down in forums.
4. Kiron made a mistake. A mistake from a subjective point of view. He became conqueror through that moraly shaky game and I imagine he has already regretted it. No matter if he cheated or not and no matter if he deserves to be conqueror or not, the mere fact that his last game from marshal to conqueror was decided in a debatable way will now hunt him down. Fair or not fair, I dont know, but the fact is that people will tend to describe Kiron as "oh...that guy who cheated that game to become conqueror", spoiling his player career. This psycology of the masses is not fair, a player at Kiron's level does not have anything to prove to anyone (unless we believe he is cheating all his career), in fact no marshall or general has anything to prove to anyone. Any general is obviousy a powerful player who could become conqueror if he concentrates to favourable tactics for a period of time and it should not be that important what happened in that specific game. After all, he could become conqueror next game or become an "almost conqueror". Is that really so important? In that case, would he be a fair conqueror, but now he is an unfair conqueror?
5. Freestyle concept. Not all people understand freestyle in the same way. Some intercept freestyle 3rd crusade as a setting that makes games faster to play and some others like a game that you have to wait for the last hour to play, so as not to be left out of the "big deal". Obviously, from a cold objective point of view, the second category of players are correct and will win the game 100% of the time. Freestyle was invented as a way to play faster, but "scientists" of this site has evolved it into a heavily complex setting, where unexperienced players cannot possibly survive
As a conclusion, I repeat again that the simplest thing is to avoid friends in non escalating games and in diplomacy based games in general. I also just avoid multiplayer freestyles as well, it turns out that real life gets significantly favored by this tactic, but again, this is just me.
+1...if only some of these other users were as reasonable as kask and joskoDukasaur wrote:Kaskavel wrote:This is a complex case. Instead of offering an answer to the accusations, I will emphasize to the roots of the problem
1. Freestyle setting combined with objectives. This setting by itself creates problems. I can hardly imagine playing 10 games in this setting with 7 of my friends and not us ending up angry with each other. Suspicions raise all the time, the boundaries between cheating and unfair become grey and people already friends to each other obtain superior winning chances without having to cheat, just by trusting each other
2. Friends playing together in non escalating games. I solved those problems a long time ago, by almost never joining non-escalating games with my friends. If I was playing with mc or sirJohn 8 player flat rate games, I would now have the same problems. I made a decision and it works just fine. You can have your fun with friends in escalating games or assasin games, but not in diplomacy based games
3. The real issue in the presented case is not if the agreement is legal. It is whether those two playes are intentionaly or unintentionaly (and this makes the case even more complex) cheating by playing together in this game from the first place. It is quite obvious that this cannot be answered or proven, no matter how many pages are written down in forums.
4. Kiron made a mistake. A mistake from a subjective point of view. He became conqueror through that moraly shaky game and I imagine he has already regretted it. No matter if he cheated or not and no matter if he deserves to be conqueror or not, the mere fact that his last game from marshal to conqueror was decided in a debatable way will now hunt him down. Fair or not fair, I dont know, but the fact is that people will tend to describe Kiron as "oh...that guy who cheated that game to become conqueror", spoiling his player career. This psycology of the masses is not fair, a player at Kiron's level does not have anything to prove to anyone (unless we believe he is cheating all his career), in fact no marshall or general has anything to prove to anyone. Any general is obviousy a powerful player who could become conqueror if he concentrates to favourable tactics for a period of time and it should not be that important what happened in that specific game. After all, he could become conqueror next game or become an "almost conqueror". Is that really so important? In that case, would he be a fair conqueror, but now he is an unfair conqueror?
5. Freestyle concept. Not all people understand freestyle in the same way. Some intercept freestyle 3rd crusade as a setting that makes games faster to play and some others like a game that you have to wait for the last hour to play, so as not to be left out of the "big deal". Obviously, from a cold objective point of view, the second category of players are correct and will win the game 100% of the time. Freestyle was invented as a way to play faster, but "scientists" of this site has evolved it into a heavily complex setting, where unexperienced players cannot possibly survive
As a conclusion, I repeat again that the simplest thing is to avoid friends in non escalating games and in diplomacy based games in general. I also just avoid multiplayer freestyles as well, it turns out that real life gets significantly favored by this tactic, but again, this is just me.
Probably the best summation I've seen.
I've come to expect that when I see Kaskavel post, there will be something worth reading, and once again this is true.
Kaskavel wrote:This is a complex case. Instead of offering an answer to the accusations, I will emphasize to the roots of the problem
1. Freestyle setting combined with objectives. This setting by itself creates problems. I can hardly imagine playing 10 games in this setting with 7 of my friends and not us ending up angry with each other. Suspicions raise all the time, the boundaries between cheating and unfair become grey and people already friends to each other obtain superior winning chances without having to cheat, just by trusting each other
2. Friends playing together in non escalating games. I solved those problems a long time ago, by almost never joining non-escalating games with my friends. If I was playing with mc or sirJohn 8 player flat rate games, I would now have the same problems. I made a decision and it works just fine. You can have your fun with friends in escalating games or assasin games, but not in diplomacy based games
3. The real issue in the presented case is not if the agreement is legal. It is whether those two playes are intentionaly or unintentionaly (and this makes the case even more complex) cheating by playing together in this game from the first place. It is quite obvious that this cannot be answered or proven, no matter how many pages are written down in forums.
4. Kiron made a mistake. A mistake from a subjective point of view. He became conqueror through that moraly shaky game and I imagine he has already regretted it. No matter if he cheated or not and no matter if he deserves to be conqueror or not, the mere fact that his last game from marshal to conqueror was decided in a debatable way will now hunt him down. Fair or not fair, I dont know, but the fact is that people will tend to describe Kiron as "oh...that guy who cheated that game to become conqueror", spoiling his player career. This psycology of the masses is not fair, a player at Kiron's level does not have anything to prove to anyone (unless we believe he is cheating all his career), in fact no marshall or general has anything to prove to anyone. Any general is obviousy a powerful player who could become conqueror if he concentrates to favourable tactics for a period of time and it should not be that important what happened in that specific game. After all, he could become conqueror next game or become an "almost conqueror". Is that really so important? In that case, would he be a fair conqueror, but now he is an unfair conqueror?
5. Freestyle concept. Not all people understand freestyle in the same way. Some intercept freestyle 3rd crusade as a setting that makes games faster to play and some others like a game that you have to wait for the last hour to play, so as not to be left out of the "big deal". Obviously, from a cold objective point of view, the second category of players are correct and will win the game 100% of the time. Freestyle was invented as a way to play faster, but "scientists" of this site has evolved it into a heavily complex setting, where unexperienced players cannot possibly survive
As a conclusion, I repeat again that the simplest thing is to avoid friends in non escalating games and in diplomacy based games in general. I also just avoid multiplayer freestyles as well, it turns out that real life gets significantly favored by this tactic, but again, this is just me.
Kaskavel wrote:people already friends to each other obtain superior winning chances without having to cheat, just by trusting each other
Kaskavel wrote:It is quite obvious that this cannot be answered or proven
Kaskavel wrote:and some others like a game that you have to wait for the last hour to play, so as not to be left out of the "big deal". Obviously, from a cold objective point of view, the second category of players are correct and will win the game 100% of the time.
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