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Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby badrandall on Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:23 am

Hi Conquer Club Community,

I'd like to propose that the Jamaica Board be changed. I think it is distasteful that the Board has players enslave people. It's ugly and disrespectful of the broader Conquer Club Community.

Thoughts?

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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Compalomp on Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:08 pm

Strongly agreed. It's bizarre and a little horrifying that enslaved people are depicted as stationary objects to be collected like bags of coins or jugs of booze. Obviously one of the purposes of games like RISK is to abstract and sanitize large-scale atrocity. Maybe a map that incorporated the idea of forced labor in a complex way could even be interesting. But this map as-is is just in bad taste.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:16 pm

The purpose of war games is to depict wars.

Wars in real life are not fought for lovely motives. Generally, it's to steal someone else's land or resources.

One of the resources fought over in the past were slaves. Nothing good about it, that's just history. You want to pretend it didn't happen?
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:28 pm

History is full of things that most would disagree with in this day and age. Slavery, killings of innocents, rape, and pillage are a few examples. History has many "black eyes".....

Compalomp wrote:Strongly agreed. It's bizarre and a little horrifying that enslaved people are depicted as stationary objects to be collected like bags of coins or jugs of booze. Obviously one of the purposes of games like RISK is to abstract and sanitize large-scale atrocity. Maybe a map that incorporated the idea of forced labor in a complex way could even be interesting. But this map as-is is just in bad taste.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Lord Arioch on Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:27 am

u dont have to go to history to find thoose things ... just look around.
I agree with dukasaur
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:13 am

I think the overall level of violence is down in the past several hundred years. The overall total number of such some such incidents may be up, but so is the world population, and by a large margin in the past 100 years.

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Lord Arioch wrote:u dont have to go to history to find thoose things ... just look around.
I agree with dukasaur
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:37 am

Dukasaur wrote:The purpose of war games is to depict wars.

Wars in real life are not fought for lovely motives. Generally, it's to steal someone else's land or resources.

One of the resources fought over in the past were slaves. Nothing good about it, that's just history. You want to pretend it didn't happen?


It could at least be renamed or rebranded. The map is clearly set in colonial era, pre-emancipation Jamaica, but that isn't acknowledged anywhere and the map is simply labelled as 'Jamaica'. Other historic maps generally state somewhere that they are maps relating to a specific time period, on the map itself if not in the map's name. There's a lot more to Jamaica than the fact it was a slave colony hundreds of years ago. You wouldn't have a map that depicts the Celtic rebellion against the Romans and just call it 'England'.

And if we're going for 'grim shit is fine to turn into a game if it's historically accurate' then I vote for the WWII Poland map to include concentration camps, and players get a bonus if they control some or all of them due to their access to free labour. And it's not insensitive or insulting to make a game out of that because it's true. A Rwandan genocide map would also be fun.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:21 am

On a side note, the Asian maps in general contain numerous gross and outdated colonial names for regions and colonial era geographic/political boundaries without ever acknowledging them as such. I imagine maps of Africa etc. contain similar whoopsies. For a white Westerner that's probably neither here nor there but you're hardly going to make, say, a Chinese user feel particularly welcome and comfortable if they look up the Far East map and see a territory called Manchuria, or someone with Jamaican family feel all warm and fuzzy when they see that the only map that includes Jamaica as anything more than a stepping stone portrays it as being an ex-slave colony.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Keefie on Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:17 pm

Maybe we could have a China map with enslaved Uighur women having forced abortions. Or one that depicts missing Uighur children.

Nah, this is a game and maybe we should keep away from things likely to offend. We have already removed swastikas from a number of maps and have banned folk using totenkopf images in there avatars. Considering the current times we live in, maybe it is time for the map to get a revamp ? How about replacing the slaves with drunken pirates ?
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby riskllama on Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:24 pm

wow, surprised cairnswk is actually even still semi-around. seems like the next step would be to contact him & see if he's up to it...*shrugs*
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:26 pm

riskllama wrote:wow, surprised cairnswk is actually even still semi-around. seems like the next step would be to contact him & see if he's up to it...*shrugs*

Cairns logs in regularly. He doesn't play or participate, but he does check his inbox and will answer questions related to his maps.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby riskllama on Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:12 pm

well, there you go.

llama = helping O:)
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:17 pm

I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby riskllama on Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:26 pm

think harder, mrs... :roll:
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:04 pm

mrswdk wrote:I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.

It's called intellectual property rights. It's one of the basic underpinnings of civilization.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby riskllama on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:16 pm

a chinaman not aware of, or seemingly uninterested in, the concept of intellectual property rights? the hell you say... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Hooch on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:35 am

mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:The purpose of war games is to depict wars.

Wars in real life are not fought for lovely motives. Generally, it's to steal someone else's land or resources.

One of the resources fought over in the past were slaves. Nothing good about it, that's just history. You want to pretend it didn't happen?


It could at least be renamed or rebranded. The map is clearly set in colonial era, pre-emancipation Jamaica, but that isn't acknowledged anywhere and the map is simply labelled as 'Jamaica'. Other historic maps generally state somewhere that they are maps relating to a specific time period, on the map itself if not in the map's name. There's a lot more to Jamaica than the fact it was a slave colony hundreds of years ago. You wouldn't have a map that depicts the Celtic rebellion against the Romans and just call it 'England'.

And if we're going for 'grim shit is fine to turn into a game if it's historically accurate' then I vote for the WWII Poland map to include concentration camps, and players get a bonus if they control some or all of them due to their access to free labour. And it's not insensitive or insulting to make a game out of that because it's true. A Rwandan genocide map would also be fun.

I agree in principle on Jamaica map being related to the age of pirates though WWII Poland map only applies to the initial invasions of Poland, Concentration Camps don't apply.
You are welcome to create both a standard Jamaica map and a WWII Poland Concentration map.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:41 am

I agree with Hooch.

Hooch wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:The purpose of war games is to depict wars.

Wars in real life are not fought for lovely motives. Generally, it's to steal someone else's land or resources.

One of the resources fought over in the past were slaves. Nothing good about it, that's just history. You want to pretend it didn't happen?


It could at least be renamed or rebranded. The map is clearly set in colonial era, pre-emancipation Jamaica, but that isn't acknowledged anywhere and the map is simply labelled as 'Jamaica'. Other historic maps generally state somewhere that they are maps relating to a specific time period, on the map itself if not in the map's name. There's a lot more to Jamaica than the fact it was a slave colony hundreds of years ago. You wouldn't have a map that depicts the Celtic rebellion against the Romans and just call it 'England'.

And if we're going for 'grim shit is fine to turn into a game if it's historically accurate' then I vote for the WWII Poland map to include concentration camps, and players get a bonus if they control some or all of them due to their access to free labour. And it's not insensitive or insulting to make a game out of that because it's true. A Rwandan genocide map would also be fun.

I agree in principle on Jamaica map being related to the age of pirates though WWII Poland map only applies to the initial invasions of Poland, Concentration Camps don't apply.
You are welcome to create both a standard Jamaica map and a WWII Poland Concentration map.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:41 am

and I agree with Duk on this point, too.

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.

It's called intellectual property rights. It's one of the basic underpinnings of civilization.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:08 am

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.

It's called intellectual property rights. It's one of the basic underpinnings of civilization.


Oh I see. CC has been short-sighted enough to allow its entire map database to be legally owned by a disparate collection of individuals without any guarantee that those individuals would remain actively engaged in maintaining their sections of that database? Somehow I am not surprised.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:32 am

mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:I never get why maps are treated as some sort of sacred relic never to be touched unless the person who originally designed it says okay, even if that person fucked off from CC years ago.

It's called intellectual property rights. It's one of the basic underpinnings of civilization.


Oh I see. CC has been short-sighted enough to allow its entire map database to be legally owned by a disparate collection of individuals without any guarantee that those individuals would remain actively engaged in maintaining their sections of that database? Somehow I am not surprised.

Actually, it's not LEGAL ownership. Legal ownership resides with CC. It's MORAL ownership. CC grants the creators of an artistic work the sole discretion as to whether that work can be modified or not. CC is the rarest of all beasts nowadays, an entity that respects the rights of its contributors without needing to be bludgeoned with legal injunctions.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby mrswdk on Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:57 am

Oh so CC has the intellectual property rights, your sassy response was a red herring and my original question still stands. Thanks for clearing that up!

So why is CC beholden to the 'moral' rights of members who have long since become inactive or vanished altogether? Rather than prioritising the interests of the active CC community?
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby jusplay4fun on Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:18 am

If you do not like it, create your own Jamaica map. Simple.


mrswdk wrote:Oh so CC has the intellectual property rights, your sassy response was a red herring and my original question still stands. Thanks for clearing that up!

So why is CC beholden to the 'moral' rights of members who have long since become inactive or vanished altogether? Rather than prioritising the interests of the active CC community?
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby .SCuD. on Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:38 am

I feel like mrswdk is on a rampage to be offended by as many things as possible on a daily basis.
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Re: Jamaica Board - Let's Change It

Postby loutil on Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:16 am

Wow....this crap has found its way into here as well. History is history. The good and the bad. Hiding it will not change it. The slave trade is part of the history of colonial Jamaica. The Royal Africa Company used Jamaica as its primary market and it became the center of the West Indies slave trade. History is a historical record. I am not sure how that offends anyone unless they wish to find a way to be offended.
We can agree slavery is horrid and does not belong anywhere in a civilized society. But, we get to that point because our history has taught us that.
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