Conquer Club

You may have noticed a bit of a kerfuffle regarding racism on CC of late.
Mainly revolving around our token freedom fighter and man of colour Owenshooter...

I use such flippant language to illustrate a point; as there is a danger that we mix one thing with the other. I think many, including the mods, fall into the trap of thinking 'Ahh the shooters at it again.. any excuse for a little stirring!'
Some will say he deserves disdain in all cases as the boy just calls wolf too often to be taken seriously... it might be a valid excuse.


In an unrelated case, a user was swiftly sanctioned: posts edited, banned for 24 hours for repeated bigoted abuse and calling a member 'cuntniggerjew'. Now if someone called me any of these i would have no problem with it on a personal level, I would be proud to be all three! I am sure my stock has come from each at some time on the Jiminski family tree. But most of my roots are hidden enough for my mixed heritage to fade from view. i am ostensibly of white, Anglo-Saxon ancestry.. brown eyes, so certainly I am a mongrel.

What i mean is, it is easy for me to ignore or pass-off such random, buck-shot abuse when aimed at me. I have no real concept of what it is to be the only black kid in the class.

So, it may be too easy to only see one perspective.. or at least not register the importance of certain issues.

My real question is: Is CC adequate in its rulings on this?

If you're going to be "family friendly" and take a hard line stance on it, then you need to certainly take it against racism.

I like Owen and find him to be quality on the battlefield and funny in the forums...and, yes, he likes to stir it up and often goes too far, IMHO...but that said, there should be zero tolerance for racism and bigotry, really. CC hands out bans for all sorts of things - this should be no different than any other prohibited speech on here.

I guess consistency is what I think CC needs in regards to the forums.

dividedbyzero wrote:I guess consistency is what I think CC needs in regards to the forums.

There is consistency in the forums. When someone breaks the Community Guidelines, they begin going up the ladder of punishment: friendly warning, formal warning, short vacation, long vacation, permanent vacation. In almost every case that owen and some others complain about, the reason the offender is not given a straight up vacation or ban is because they have not moved far enough up the ladder. There are some offenses that move you up the ladder quicker than others (i.e. racism is worse than spam in my opinion), but you still have to move up the ladder. Because we do not go around publicizing every friendly and formal warning that we hand out, some people are unaware of who has been warned when.

When people make a multi or point dump, they are violating the Rules Page, not just the Community Guidelines. When you're messing with the game itself, because that is what this site exists for, that always is, and should be, a more stern punishment than a violation in the forums.

Overall, I think that if the ladders of punishment are followed, then CC is being consistent. Even when some people think certain forum violations should be automatically banned.

Night Strike wrote:

dividedbyzero wrote:I guess consistency is what I think CC needs in regards to the forums.

There is consistency in the forums. When someone breaks the Community Guidelines, they begin going up the ladder of punishment: friendly warning, formal warning, short vacation, long vacation, permanent vacation. In almost every case that owen and some others complain about, the reason the offender is not given a straight up vacation or ban is because they have not moved far enough up the ladder. There are some offenses that move you up the ladder quicker than others (i.e. racism is worse than spam in my opinion), but you still have to move up the ladder. Because we do not go around publicizing every friendly and formal warning that we hand out, some people are unaware of who has been warned when.

When people make a multi or point dumb, they are violating the Rules Page, not just the Community Guidelines. When you're messing with the game itself, because that is what this site exists for, that always is, and should be, a more stern punishment than a violation in the forums.

Overall, I think that if the ladders of punishment are followed, then CC is being consistent. Even when some people think certain forum violations should be automatically banned.

yeas, i am not sure it is consistency which is the issue.. (though i concede it may well be and am happy to be persuaded) I think the real issue is the gravity of overt racist abuse (you allude to that briefly in the last line of your post).

This is the point of the thread, I think at least a minority of users would see the kind of blatant racism sometimes on offer in games, PM's etc as zero tolerance issues. Issues which are far more grave than repeated trolling or random flaming.

We must be balanced on this and Clapper acted lightning fast in the case of the anti-Muslim thread.

This in mind though, using the term I quoted in the first post, for example, may equate to more than 1.7million trolling violations for at least a small minority of people here.

I'd like to know if members agree with that .. or perhaps they are more around the 1.5 million trolling violation mark?
Or perhaps you are of the mind that racial abuse is something which the site should not really adjudicate upon in any real sense as it is only marginally more important than derailing a thread?
And certainly not as important as multi abuse?

i think for the most part cc handles racism in the way that it should....

on a similar topic tho, xenophobia(dislike of people from countries other than your own) i see alot more often lately. this may be because ive found myself wandering into off-topic more lately than i used to... but unfiltered xenophobic remarks seem worse to me than racism, as racism is usually a last ditch effort to offend someone and will always happen on some level, where as the xenophobia actually attempts to spread hate through flawed logic and mis-conceptions.... the blind leading the blind...

dividedbyzero wrote:I guess consistency is what I think CC needs in regards to the forums.

Isn't jiminski pretty consistently at Owen's throat over this stuff? That's consistent. I think Owen's hilarious most of the time. Everyone needs to lighten up. Owen pisses me off too, but that's part of the routine. No comic is going to kill with every joke. Not every post Owen makes is going to be hilarious or even worth reading. But we all have to put up with the bad parts of each other in order to enjoy the good parts.

I take Mr. Ridiculous with a big grain of salt and know that at the end of the day, he's a hyperbolic personality. So if you can't handle that, put him on ignore. Otherwise, lighten up and get over yourselves.

pimpdave wrote:I take Mr. nshooter with a big grain of salt and know

wow... really? in a thread about racism i get called Nshooter? i'm SURE it's just a typo... i'll post on all of this later, out of fear of getting this thread locked...-0

pimpdave wrote:

dividedbyzero wrote:I guess consistency is what I think CC needs in regards to the forums.

Isn't jiminski pretty consistently at Owen's throat over this stuff? ...

heh I'm just an open book to your perceptive gaze it seems...

owenshooter wrote:

pimpdave wrote:I take Mr.shooter with a big grain of salt and know

wow... really? in a thread about racism i get called shooter? i'm SURE it's just a typo... i'll post on all of this later, out of fear of getting this thread locked...-0

i actually didnt see any racism in that until u mentioned it

a.sub wrote:

owenshooter wrote:

pimpdave wrote:I take Mr. shooter with a big grain of salt and know

wow... really? in a thread about racism i get called shooter? i'm SURE it's just a typo... i'll post on all of this later, out of fear of getting this thread locked...-0

i actually didnt see any racism in that until u mentioned it

yeah, and no warning will be issued for that blatant slip. i'll be told to just ignore it and walk away. what i don't get is, why are there guidelines in place for the mods/admins to deal with racism and bigotry on CC, if they aren't willing to do it? 24 hours for harassing a member for over a week is a joke. then that member turns around and point dumps and is suspended from the site? how does that make sense? it doesn't... racism is simply ignored on this site, and the guidelines are for show as they are not enforced. they are clear:
Subject: Community Guidelines

Community Guidelines wrote:

• In no circumstances is bigotry allowed.
  
  • Bigotry includes racism, aggressive homophobia, religion bashing or wishing violence on any minority group.
  • Bigotry takes into account historic events, emotional baggage and generally accepted associations with a term, phrase or intent - posting "White Power" in a thread has a history and is bigoted, posting "Green Power" makes you an environmentalist.

and they are clearly not enforced. i for one am tired of being called horrible racist names and dealing with innuendo (like above with the Nshooter), and having to wade through racism across the forums. i'm sure the mods/admins are tired of my complaints and pointing out how little they do to curb it. so imagine how tired i am of being called the same derogatory racist terms within the forums and game chat and seeing next to nothing done about it.-0

p.s.-thank goodness they are cleaning CC up...

Night Strike wrote:

dividedbyzero wrote:When people make a multi or point dumb, they are violating the Rules Page

Ah yes. The mystical point dumb

You sound shocked, Owen. The rest of us are not.

Stop the racism on this site. This is the #1 reason I am possibly not re upping my premium. And this from someone who bought another user premium a month ago.

Don't ban Owen because he doesn't like being called the N-word. Most black people don't. Mormonism is a made up cult, but if I said that, I would get in trouble. Unless you stop reading and place me on ignore.

The ladder can be adjusted. Speeders get warnings, then tickets then lose their license. But when they have a clean driving record, and commit vehicular homicide, they aren't let off with a warning.

This is a family friendly site. Racism should start with a 3 day ban.

but to what degree
if i said somethign like
"Silly chinese ppl"
versus
"nigger"
obviously they dont deserve the same punishment imo

owenshooter wrote:

pimpdave wrote:I take Mr. Ridiculous with a big grain of salt and know

wow... really? in a thread about racism i get called ridiculous? i'm SURE it's just a typo... i'll post on all of this later, out of fear of getting this thread locked...-0

The other funny thing owen does is flip out like this. Comedy gold mine. I can't believe anyone would take this seriously.

jbrettlip wrote:Don't ban Owen because he doesn't like being called the N-word. Most black people don't. Mormonism is a made up cult, but if I said that, I would get in trouble. Unless you stop reading and place me on ignore.

owen was banned because he was called the n-word?? i dont think thats what happened is it?

Optimus Prime wrote:

Jbrettlip wrote:This is a family friendly site.

Nowhere, anywhere does it say that on this website.

Also, owenshooter was never banned "for not liking to be called the n-word." He was banned because he had been trolling the forum digging up old arguments and being a nuisance. End of story. He refused to heed warnings and paid the punishment. Stop trying to wrap it in something it isn't.

As for the topic at hand. Racism is not tolerated as noted in the community guidelines and to my knowledge the offenders have been dealt with according to the policies we currently have. Keep in mind that the moment we change a policy to deal with one issue it opens up a can of worms. Next thing you know everyone will want a minimum punishment for some other issue, then another one, and then it just gets ridiculous.

Lets be careful to remember that we have no intention of letting racism go unchecked, and in my opinion it hasn't been allowed to do so. Part of the problem here is people who keep dragging the same issue through the mud a million times.

Regards, OP

so, is this the official response on racism? just wondering... and i am not dragging anything through the mud a million times. i simply complain when i am called the N word EACH AND EVERY TIME(like in this thread, as admitted by the user that posted it), and when users are let off without any punishment for racist remarks/actions. i find it funny that a member called me Nshooter in this thread, fully knowing what it represents, and he hasn't received an immediate ban. wow!!! the guidelines are clear, and they are clearly not enforced... that is how i feel... and i am a person of colour, so my feelings are valid... sorry, but telling someone to stop reading something offensive and walk away is not the answer. it does not work that way...-0

p.s.-and where did the post go?

I did a comprehensive search and I can find nowhere that explains the term "nshooter" as being racist, owenshooter. Therefore, I don't believe you.

Do us all a favor owenshooter and stop pretending that you know whether or not a user has gone unpunished. You can have your opinion I suppose, but that certainly isn't correct and I'll state that right here and now. People who engage in racism are punished, they simply aren't punished in the manner you personally wish them to be.

There is a huge difference. Remember that.

a.sub wrote:but to what degree
if i said somethign like
"Silly chinese ppl"
versus
"nigger"
obviously they dont deserve the same punishment imo

Agreed, and that is where moderation comes in. If you were to say all Chinese people were a certain derogatory thing by nature then it would be up for subjective analysis as to the impact, intent and gravity. It's the same as all moderation on the forums.

But though i think these things can be very grey, like the 'friendly' use of nigger in comtempoaray 'urban' communication. it is generally quite obvious as to the intent of vicious racism.

Optimus Prime wrote:I did a comprehensive search and I can find nowhere that explains the term "nshooter" as being racist, owenshooter. Therefore, I don't believe you.

sigh.. just shaking my head.. ever hear of the N-word? then he calls me Nshooter, leaving out 3 letters of my username in some mega typo... sigh...

i'm going to let some other people comment in here, because this is not about me. this is about the ever increasing tolerance for racism on this site, despite what has been said by mods/admins. telling someone to simply stop reading something they find racist and offensive and to move on is not a solution. great thread jiminski, i hope it lasts...-0

owenshooter wrote:

Optimus Prime wrote:I did a comprehensive search and I can find nowhere that explains the term "nshooter" as being racist, owenshooter. Therefore, I don't believe you.

sigh.. just shaking my head.. ever hear of the N-word? then he calls me Nshooter, leaving out 3 letters of my username in some mega typo... sigh...

i'm going to let some other people comment in here, because this is not about me. this is about the ever increasing tolerance for racism on this site, despite what has been said by mods/admins. telling someone to simply stop reading something they find racist and offensive and to move on is not a solution. great thread jiminski, i hope it lasts...-0

As for the bolded text. There is not an ever increasing tolerance for racism on this website. It's that simple. People are punished for making racist remarks. How hard is that to understand?

Lol, "nshooter"? Seriously? How do you slip up and type nshooter instead of owenshooter? Damn racist pig.

I didn't even know owenshooter was black until now. I highly doubt he is the only black person on this site, perhaps he is just the only known one.

Anyways, we don't know whether owenshooter is joking or not, it might seem obvious to some that he is joking, but for now until proven otherwise we need to take him serious.

I vote that pimpdave be banned for at least a week for his "slip up" which he never even apologized for as a slip up. I personally see that as being a racist remark, from an unbiased stand point.

jbrettlip wrote:This is a family friendly site. Racism should start with a 3 day ban.

I agree entirely. The people running this site say that racism and bigotry are not tolerated, but then tolerate it all over the place.

Just last night, a user started a blatantly racist, and bigoted thread in the off-topics forum. In one respect, it was dealt with well. The thread was locked, and edited almost immediately. I suspected the user would be given, at least a short ban, given the intention and severity of the bigotry, but that user was still listed in "Registered Users" (not on a ban). So then, I figured that he was given a stern warning for a "first offense", (which I personally think is far too lenient, but that's beside the point). Only when I took a quick look at the poster's history, did I realize that this particular person seems to be absolutely full of hate towards a particular ethnic group. He had only made 14 posts in his CC career, and no fewer than FOUR of them were openly bigoted. Four, out of fourteen! And these are not all from the last day or two. These four posts, span over months, and months. Why is it that only now, this guy MIGHT (as I don't know for sure) be getting his first warning?

This is just one example of MANY. And that's without even getting into any situation that Owen has been involved in.

Here is (just part) of my view of the Owen situation. He is not the type of guy to take things lying down. Especially when it comes to people trying to degrade him for the colour of his skin. It started with him being called derogatory names. It escalated when Owen tried to get CC to put a stop to it. Certain users saw that there was tolerance happening, and knew that they could use that to their advantage, by consistently baiting him with "soft", and/or thinly-veiled racist comments. Of course, he responded exactly as anyone would have guessed. He was furious. From what I can tell, he wasn't so angry at the people baiting him, as he was at CC for allowing it to happen, all while claiming to not tolerate racism, or bigotry. And what happened? Owen got a month-long ban for "not letting it go". Don't claim to "not tolerate" something, and then turn around and tell people to "let it go", when it continues to happen.

It is my opinion that if this site is going to continue saying that it doesn't tolerate bigotry, it should back that up with real action. It seems that it is treated as the same level of no-no, as spamming, trolling, and flaming, which are frustrating, but I think the powers that be don't really realize that racism causes REAL HURT. It is not simply another form of flaming. It has a much more profound effect on the victims.

If CC were the only place racism ever occurred, it would likely be an entirely different story, but it is something that is grounded in real life for EVERY SINGLE ONE of it's victims. It is not simply calling someone stupid, or bad at a game. It is attacking them for WHO THEY ARE.

Please ConquerClub. I beg of you. Back up your words with real action. Don't let bigots and racists have a haven here.

alright..I "modified" the "n" part of "nshooter" however pimpdave can take this as the warning..if you did not intend it as a racist remark then fine..but dont do it again k? as Optimus stated :
Optimus Prime wrote: I did a comprehensive search and I can find nowhere that explains the term "nshooter" as being racist, owenshooter. Therefore, I don't believe you.

Night Strike wrote:

dividedbyzero wrote:I guess consistency is what I think CC needs in regards to the forums.

There is consistency in the forums. When someone breaks the Community Guidelines, they begin going up the ladder of punishment: friendly warning, formal warning, short vacation, long vacation, permanent vacation.

I have actually found that there is INCONSISTENCY among the various moderators within the forums. There is consistency for each moderator and how they handle things, but the moderators as a group are inconsistent. And I'm certainly not the only one who thinks so.

Night Strike wrote:Overall, I think that if the ladders of punishment are followed, then CC is being consistent. Even when some people think certain forum violations should be automatically banned.

I certainly believe there are some very rare cases where an automatic long-term vacation is warranted to be followed by a permanent ban for the second offense of the same nature.